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Rane: Hello. My name is Rane and this is the Flow Artists podcast. Together with my co host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. Before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode, Jo speaks with Ambika Chadwick, director and lead teacher of the yoga social and Chair Yoga Australia. Ambika has been teaching for over 25 years, having first discovered yoga as a dancer and performer. She did her initial training in an ashram in India and has gone on to study many different styles and approaches. Now Ambika specialises in chair and restorative yoga and yoga for seniors. We cover all aspects of teaching this community in our conversation, including leading classes in nursing homes and working with conditions like dementia. Ambika has lots of great insights about teaching and living all aspects of yoga, navigating the challenges of running a yoga business and the importance of community. Were also very excited to announce that Ambika is running a chair yoga teacher training for seniors at our very own studio, Garden of Yoga. It runs this September 14 and 15th. Head to her website@theyogasocial.com to learn more. Ambika is such a joyful and engaging speaker with so much to share. We're sure you'll absolutely love this episode. So let's get into the conversation.

Jo: Hello, Ambika, welcome. Thanks so much for speaking with us today or with me today. Great to talk to you.

Ambika: Thank you for having me.

Jo: Do you want to start by telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up?

Ambika: Yes. So I am from England and we moved over in the late seventies, seventies to South Australia. And since probably from an early age, I got into dance and was very, very interested in movement and so. And I was also in the theatre a lot and so the yoga was just a natural kind of progression from all of that, I suppose.

Jo: And so did you discover yoga as a dancer?

Ambika: I did, yes. Yes. So I went to a college called the Centre for Performing Arts in Adelaide and studied dance. And it was actually, believe it or not, this was in the early nineties. It was part of the curriculum. We did it on Tuesdays and Thursdays, which is just like now, that would be unheard of for yoga to be part of a curriculum. But yeah, it was. So I mean, we did consider it more, I suppose we didn't quite understand the essence of yoga, of what yoga was actually about. We just saw it as deep stretching, which will help with our dance. And it was only kind of after that study where I kind of realised all the other benefits when I got a little bit older, I suppose. Yeah.

Jo: I've taught school kids yoga as part of a drama programme in the past. I feel like it's probably the instructor, like the teacher did yoga themselves and felt the benefits for themselves, so it's probably their initiative to bring it in.

Ambika: Yeah. So good, so good. We need it more, don't we, in schools, I mean.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. And also I've taught as an alternative, or it's just been part of the PE unit, which I love as well, because if you're not like a competitive person or particularly coordinated with ball sports like me, it's so good having something where you can, like, move your body and feel good and it's not about, you know, like a competitive achievement goal, it's just, you know, physically being in your body.

Ambika: Yep, yep, exactly. Same here with all of that kind of thing. I was saying I'm not a team player is incorrect, because I'm definitely a team player. But I was never really into that team sport thing. If I didn't movement and all of that, it was just more about myself. That's. I'm making me sound very selfish, but. But do you know what I mean? It was. It was just doing something on my own and. Yeah, yeah. So yoga makes sense. Yeah.

Jo: And so when did you decide that you wanted to teach yoga?

Ambika: Probably a few years after practising it. When I finished study, I moved overseas. I was living in Japan, working as a dancer, and I got right into yoga. I was living with a woman from Queensland, actually, and she was really into yoga, so she taught me a whole lot of stuff and showed me some books. And these books actually introduced me to yoga philosophy. And so I decided then, when I was in Japan, that I wanted to go to India and I wanted to practise yoga in India. And so, yeah, that would have been in the mid nineties. Yeah.

Jo: And so then you made it to India then?

Ambika: I did, yeah, I did. We were there for almost six months. Yeah. Just travelling around and I. Practising yoga and. Yeah, doing stuff, doing nothing, having adventures. Yeah. It was a lot of fun back then. Yeah.

Jo: And so how did you discover chair yoga?

Ambika: Chair yoga? I reckon I discovered it through other yoga practises, but it wasn't called chair yoga. It was just using chairs to help with certain poses to make them more accessible. And so ayanga yoga. I practised ayanga yoga a bit, and they definitely, they use chairs a lot in ayanga yoga with different poses. And also I did my prenatal yoga teacher training many, many years ago, and we did a lot with chairs there. And so, yeah, I was introduced to it, I suppose, through different approaches to yoga, but it wasn't necessarily called chair yoga. It was only a few years, kind of after that, when I wanted to look more into senior yoga because my parents were ageing and, yeah, I just started thinking about myself as well, because I'm getting older. So then I looked into more of the actual chair yoga.

Jo: Yeah. Because people who haven't done ayanga style chair assisted yoga poses, it's pretty different. Often the chairs are there to make the pose more intense, especially the ayenga chair back bends, I remember where you keep your hips pretty rigid, so you can really emphasise that deep spinal extension and then reach back underneath and hold the legs of the chairs and things like that.

Ambika: Absolutely. That's a full on back bend. Yeah.

Jo: Chair yoga, I remember from Ayenga as well, is the headstand variation where it's like two chairs and you have your shoulders on the seat of each chair and your head dangling down in between both chairs, and then come up from there. And I guess it is making it more accessible for people who might have a neck injury. But it's like a lot of effort to go from feet on the ground, shoulders on chairs, to holding that upright.

Ambika: Headstand, it demands a lot of core strength there. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These, I mean, these are quite intense poses. But then also, I remember in Iyenga using the chair to take the feet to the chair in plough pose, if the feet couldn't get down to the floor. So being able to press into the chair and get that feedback that you would usually get from the floor and. But, yeah, I get. I get what you're saying, definitely. I mean, look, I. You can do a real crazy, complex power chair yoga class and do push ups against the chair and plank side planks and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I focused a little bit more on the gentle, more kind of accessible and senior. Senior chair yoga. Really? Yeah.

Jo: Although, I mean, with that population as well, it is really important to do, like, as much kind of upper body weight bearing movements as people can safely, because that's how you maintain bone density and strength.

Ambika: Yeah, it really is. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. We do, do. We do do a lot of strength stuff. Yeah.

Jo: And so we've started on a little bit, like, mainly talking about accessibility and being able to provide people with a variety of different movements. What are some of the other benefits of chair yoga?

Ambika: Well, look, I see the benefits of chair yoga very similar to the benefits of mat yoga. So we are improving strength and mobility. We're also improving our breath control and learning to find stillness in moments that might feel a little bit intense. I think the number one benefit of chair yoga is having that support. So you might. I might have, I might introduce, for example, warrior two into a chair yoga class. I might have some people doing warrior two on their chair, sitting on their chair with their arms extended out to either side. I might have some people behind the chair with their hands to the chair, doing the lower body and using the chair for support. I might have some people taking their hands away from the chair and extending both arms out, doing a warrior two, like we would do in a mat, in a mat class. And so I think just with that, I mean, it's just so inclusive to everybody, regardless, regardless of what's going on. So, yeah, I think that's a major benefit. That's why I wanted to introduce chair yoga classes to my studio.

Jo: I think another benefit as well, which I've been particularly aware of since lockdowns, really is chair yoga online. It's actually, I find, a little bit easier to follow and I've taught just because you're kind of closer to your screen and it's easier to see what's happening. And I've taught so many workplace corporate mental health focus classes using the chair. And I think it really removes some logistical barriers and maybe some psychological barriers as well, because a lot of that population, like, people are already in their chair looking at a screen, which is not always a positive, but if they don't have a yoga mat and they're not wearing, like, stretchy yoga clothes, that's not a problem for a workplace chair yoga class. And then what I hope from there as well is they've had that experience and hopefully they can just take away a few stretches or some breathing techniques or a little meditation that they did in their chair, then that they can come back to, like, through their day still in their chair because you don't have that psychological thing of like, oh, I've got to rearrange my room to make yoga space. Like, there's chairs everywhere.

Ambika: There's chairs everywhere. Exactly. I remember I was interviewed on ABC radio and we did a chair yoga class and we were talking about chairs and it was like, we don't discriminate between chairs. It's like you can have. You can sit on an armchair if you want. I mean, preferably with no arms, but if you haven't, if you just have an armchair, then use your armchair. If you're sitting in your car, obviously stop the car first, pull over and do some chair. So really, it does make it more accessible because we've all got chairs and we all know how to.

Jo: One thing I have noticed as well with my workplace classes, I do have to warn people who are in a chair on wheels that sometimes that adds an extra stability challenge. So be aware if your chair has wheels.

Ambika: Yeah. I did a video once and I actually, the only chair I had was a chair on wheels and I had to keep on apologising because my chair was moving everywhere. Yeah, yeah. It's a little tricky. They're good for core stability, though.

Jo: Yeah. If you are ready for that extra stability challenge, the wheels provide it.

Ambika: Yeah.

Jo: And so in the classes that you teach, do you tend to do all sitting down moves in the chair or do you kind of do some standing up ones where you use it for an extra support as well?

Ambika: Yeah, we. It does depend on where I'm teaching. So I teach in studios, I also teach in community centres, and then I also teach in aged care facilities and dementia units. And so in studios and. And also in the community centres, we sit down and we also stand up and use the chair for support. I'll always give options for people who do choose to sit. Sit and not stand, but. Yeah, yeah. So we might. We might start seated and we'll do some mobilising, a little bit of connection with the breath type stuff, and then we come up to standing and do some strengthening stuff, standing behind the chair, doing some balancing things, maybe standing in front of the chair, facing the chair, doing forward bending type stuff, and then we return to the chair for our final deeper stretches and relaxation and breathing. So I kind of stick with that template when I'm teaching, and often the classes are 15 minutes, so we do 1515 and 15, and that works well as well, timing wise. You know, if you look at the time and it's like, okay, we need to be sitting at this point because this is where we start doing the deep stretching. And it also helps my students, if they're regular, when they're at home, to remember what to do as well. But in the nursing homes, we stay seated generally. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just more accessible to everybody if we stay seated. So we're just including everybody? Yeah.

Jo: And so in your classes in the nursing homes, like, I know that losing balance is one of the symptoms as dementia progresses. Do you have staff there to assist or is it just you leading the course?

Ambika: Yeah, yeah. There's always going to be staff assisting in the nursing homes. Always. They're actually really large classes. Some of the classes are 15 to 20 people and so there are staff there all the time.

Jo: That would be reassuring, like, just in case anyone did need assistance, to have another person there to help.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah.

Jo: And probably reassuring for the residents as well, to have someone there that they know.

Ambika: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Jo: And so just kind of going a little deeper into working with that population. I'd love to know, like, what are some of, like, are there any particular benefits to practising yoga for conditions like Alzheimer's and dementia, where they really do affect the brain?

Ambika: Yeah, yeah, there are, there really are. I mean, and they've done lots of research into this also. And so in the. In the aged care facilities, especially in the dementia unit, mostly, if a resident is in a dementia unit, they're going to be toward the later stages if they're in a dementia unit. And so often they don't really understand much of my verbal cueing, but they watch what I do and they follow, follow what I do and so just that motor control of watching somebody and following. And also I like to do a lot of kind of opposite arm to leg type stuff which can help improve brain function. And it's also a social thing as well. And I make sure we have a whole lot of fun. It can also, as far as memory goes, help to improve memory, because I talk about. We do an exercise which is one of my faves. It's actually a fave in, like, the studios as well. It's not just in the aged care facilities, but we call it picking fruit, where we sit on our chair and we imagine we've got this fruit tree all around us and we just reach and pick fruit from every angle. And I'll suggest going down low, going high, reaching behind you and all. We just reach, basically. Basically. But in the dementia units, we might take it a little bit further and say, well, you know, let's talk about our favourite fruits.

Jo: And then we.

Ambika: Sometimes we end up talking about jam and. Which is great, like peach and apricot jam, stuff like that, and they'll just shout out their favourite fruit. Things like, this is great for mental clarity and also for that. For that. Just a social activity. Yeah.

Jo: And that's such a functional movement as well. Like, to be able to reach up and take something off a shelf or, you know, reach down and pick up something that fell on the floor. Like, that's totally something you would take for granted until you couldn't do it easily anymore and it became something you had to practise.

Ambika: Exactly. It feels so good. And I'll say things like, this is something we can do every day, you know, and it just feels good. I've had people request it, so. So, yeah, I think that generally just improving quality of life. Yeah. These classes, to the point where, like, I did stop teaching at a facility and the residents asked for it back and. And also their family members wanted me to go back, so.

Jo: Wow. So they were even telling their family about your classes?

Ambika: Exactly, exactly, yeah, I know.

Jo: There's also quite a few studies on how powerful music is for memory and how helpful it can be with conditions like Alzheimer's and dementia that affect our memory. Do you bring any music into your sessions?

Ambika: I do bring music into my sessions, and when I first started, and also when I studied the senior chair yoga, which was with the International Yoga Teachers association, we were encouraged to play music that was kind of more for their time. And, you know, most of the residents with dementia are over 65. Most, not all. And we were encouraged to do that. And I think I tried it once or twice, and they actually preferred the meditation music. So just the waterfall sounds and, you know, just music in the background, basically, where they can just move their arms to and just slow music and.

Jo: Yeah.

Ambika: So I went with that, and I'm.

Jo: Not sure if an aged care facility is in a thing like a hospital environment where there's always background sounds, like there's beepers going off, there's tv in another room, there's, like, lunche trays clattering past. So, like, having a soundscape of your own amidst an environment that can sometimes be a little bit chaotic and distracting, I'm sure. Be very helpful.

Ambika: Yeah, it can be quite chaotic and distracting. Definitely, yeah.

Jo: Do you do any vocal, like, I'm not sure if you do Sanskrit chanting, but any other kind of vocal exercises. Do you get people to use their own voices at all?

Ambika: I don't. I mean, apart from the general chit chat that will always take place in those classes. Always. I don't know. No. But I'd be interested to hear if other people do what they use, what they do and how it benefits. Definitely, yeah.

Jo: I'm thinking about something I read about people who have suffered strokes and how sometimes the part of your brain that controls speaking might be damaged, but a lot of people can still sing because it's a different part of your brain.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Might have to do a bit of research into that. Maybe I'll maybe try it.

Jo: I mean, chanting is not my comfort zone as a teacher. Like, I'm not a very confident singer, so it would not be like. I'm not even sure if I would bring it in. And I teach some chair yoga classes as well. But, yeah, I was just interested to hear what other people do.

Ambika: Yeah. Might want to sing a bit of Frank Sinatra or something. I don't know. I'm not sure.

Jo: Another question I've got about specifically working with this population is obviously, if someone is doing something that doesn't look safe, I'm sure you would, you know, step in there, but how much do you like, if someone hasn't understand what you've said and he's doing something completely different, do you take any action there or do you just let them do their thing? And it doesn't really matter if everyone's got a little bit of something different.

Ambika: Going on, let them do their thing. In fact, that's going to happen all the time. I mean, I've taught some classes where practically everybody is just doing their own thing and it's just, I'm so happy that people are moving to and, you know, and for some of these residents, they don't want to move. They don't want to do anything for maybe half the class because they're just a little scared to. And then when they see other people moving and having fun, then they'll just start moving. Even if they're not watching me, they don't know what's going on, but they're moving around, which is what we want. We want that mobilising, want that fun and playfulness and, yeah, we want all of this. So I'm totally fine. And sometimes I'll stand and just walk around and continue doing the movement as I'm walking in front of them all, and I'll continue speaking as well. And that if I do see something that might be a little bit. Oh, no, please, I don't want you to fall off your chair. Or then I might go and stand in front of them and say, try this, or something like that. I mean, obviously we're not going to touch anybody in the aged care facility. I mean, I don't touch my students at my studio either, but that is really important that we don't do that. In an aged care facility and even to the point helping them stand up or sit into a chair, it's not something that we're even allowed to do, even if we wanted to, and so it's more just verbalising and moving my body and.

Jo: Yeah, and, I mean, that's why it's helpful to have the staff there, because they have a different duty of care and, you know, if someone did seem like they're about to fall out of their chair, I feel like that would be something for the nurse to handle rather than you.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah. I mean, a one place I was teaching and this actually is a great, great place. I reckon there were about four or five staff who used to join in. They'd sit around the circle as well and join in, which was great. It was so good because they helped get everybody involved and, yeah, the energy was so great.

Jo: Yeah. I've taught chair yoga classes for our local council and it's a community drop in centre, like, session, but a lot of the people who came come with a support worker and they do the classes as well. And, like, they all said how calm they felt afterwards and, like, they appreciate the stretches as well because, like, that's a really physical job, like physically assisting other people. And I know that, like, nurses especially are kind of notorious for having back issues just from the physicality of the job and the awkward movements that they need to do. So, yeah, it's actually great if the people who are taking care of other people all day get that chance to do a little self care as well.

Ambika: Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing as well. I think a lot of people don't realise, but chair yoga is for everybody. You don't have to be. You don't have to be old and frail or need to sit on a chair in order to. Everybody can, and everybody can work hard if they want to in chair yoga, or they can take it easy. In chair yoga depends on what they need, and it's the yoga meets us and so regardless of our age or what we're doing, we can still get so much out of it.

Jo: I think one of the really nice aspects as well is if you are someone who has, like, an energy impairment kind of a disability, it's a lot less of a move to go from doing something like a standing warrior pose and then coming all the way down to the ground if you need a rest, versus doing a chair based warrior pose and then just settling back into the chair if you need a rest. Like, it's much easier to kind of adjust in and out of the level of intensity without having to. Like, it's not as physically demanding to just get to the rest position as sometimes it can be if you're in the middle of a standing sequence. And I think for a lot of people as well, like, they may feel less self conscious just kind of settling back in the chair versus stopping and lying down in the middle of an active class.

Ambika: Exactly. You still feel like you're part of the collective and you're still able to do things and you're still getting the same as what everybody else is getting, just sitting on a chair.

Jo: Yeah, and it is helpful as well. I mentioned I teach quite a few corporate chair classes. Like, people are wearing all kinds of things to those classes, so it doesn't really matter if people are wearing restrictive clothes as well. Like usually you can do most of the moves in a chair class no matter what you're wearing.

Ambika: A. Yeah, exactly. I remember in Melbourne I taught a corporate class. This was a Mac class. I taught a corporate Mac class and everybody walked in still wearing their suits. And I just thought, what are we going to do? And so we did it. We did all, everything standing. But that would have been a perfect time to do Cheeriogar. Suits can be restrictive, skirts can be restrictive.

Jo: Yeah. So many school classes I've taught where there's some kids in skinny jeans and it's like, oh, this is going to be challenging, I bet.

Ambika: Definitely.

Rane: Hello, it's Rane here. Just popping in to let you know about a great bonus episode we've shared with our Patreon supporters this month. It's an unfiltered and unedited conversation between me and Jo where we talk about my experiences with yoga during my cancer treatment and recovery, how she's going with her book, my apt SoundMadeSeen, and also about me shaving off my bed. So really engaging stuff. It's an entertaining and irreverent chat and we hope you enjoy listening to it. This conversation is just one of the great pieces of bonus content that our Patreon supporters can enjoy. You also receive our endless gratitude as the Patreon donations help us cover editing and hosting costs, which we really appreciate. You can join our Patreon for free now to get the latest updates. Just head to patreon.com floartistpodcast to join the fun. Alright, let's get back to the conversation between Joe and Ambika.

Jo: So I think we've touched on this a little bit. Like just some of the misconceptions that people might have about chair yoga, like we were saying, like, even if you can do yoga on the mat, there are still additional benefits to practising in the chair. Are there any, like, chair yoga myths that you encounter that you'd like to bust?

Ambika: Look, I think the main one is that chair yoga is less than. And I think that that's. I've had students that haven't been able to get to some classes and I've said, oh, just come to the chair one. And they've straight away gone, oh, no, no, no, I'm not ready. I'm not there yet. I'm still fit, you know? And yeah, I think that when we do teacher training, then a lot of people realise, a lot of these yoga teachers realise that come to the teacher training. The first class I teach them, they actually work really hard and they're also surprised. And so I think that's probably the main myth. It's chair yoga is this style that you have to do. When you get to a certain point when you can't do mat yoga anymore, then you have to just use a chair.

Jo: You know, it's just not, and I especially encounter that perception if it's a class that has mat options and chair options. And sometimes I even just stop giving the mat options because I know that, like, especially if there's a couple of people that you have in mind who've maybe mentioned that they've got knee issues or wrist issues, so you've kind of got that thought in your head, like, oh, perfect. Well, the chair variations will be great for that person and then they don't want to be the only person in class using the chair. And I don't necessarily delegate people by name to choose a chair or to choose the floor, because you do want it to be open to everyone to kind of decide what's best for their bodies. But yeah, sometimes the easiest way is to just be like, okay, we're all doing this sequence from a chair. And then sometimes people are surprised that, like, it changes where you feel the stretch. It might mean that you can just hit a different spot when you're not working on maintaining your upright balance at the same time as doing whatever particular movement you're doing in the chair. And because you're already in a seated position in the chair, like, your hips are already in that flexion position, which for some standing poses, you wouldn't necessarily get down as low as the chair takes you. So sometimes you do end up like just things are on a different angle, so you feel the stretch in a different way or in a different place.

Ambika: Yep, yep, exactly. Exactly. And I've, yeah, I've definitely, I've had so many, so many of my older adults actually say how much their balance has improved just by using the chair in different, in different ways. And even our balance can improve even when we're just sitting on our chair doing core stuff and lifting one leg, like, when we're not actually standing, doing what we think about kind of the yoga balancing poses, like tree pose, that kind of thing. We can do balancing poses sitting on a chair. Yeah, yeah.

Jo: Especially if you're flowing into those moves where it's opposite arm and leg, because then you're working across the body as well. So you get like those cross body stability benefits.

Ambika: Yeah, definitely.

Jo: The other population as well, which I think you mentioned briefly, is prenatal students, because the chair can be a really good way to keep working with poses like plank pose and dog pose wherever I. Maybe the floor is not a comfortable option anymore because I know a lot of people do experience wrist pain as part of pregnancy, but all the prenatal clients I've worked with have really loved that ability to, like, lengthen out their spine and get that shoulder stretch of the downward facing dog pose where your hands are either on the seat of the chair or on the back of the chair, and you can just lengthen your spine back. And I don't feel like I even get that stretch in regular downward facing dog because you're pushing up off the ground instead of.

Ambika: Absolutely, absolutely. I remember doing practically an entire sequence using a chair with my prenatal students, apart from maybe the end where we will, you know, go on to an inclined sukta, barakonasana type thing for a relaxation. But we did all of our standing poses with the chair. We did standing forward bend, downward facing dog. We would do kind of a side forward bend. Also balances, depending on whether they could balance or not, but we would do balances half moon using the chair even. There's also a great one if you're sitting in front of the chair on your knees and you pop your elbows onto the seat of the chair to open your shoulders, open your triceps and open your chest. That's beautiful. And so safe. They've got so much room. Yeah. Yeah. So many things we can do with chairs.

Jo: And like, another condition that I've just thought about as well, which can, it can come up as we get older, it can come up in pregnancy and it can just come up anytime, like as a virus or something is, people are working with vertigo because I do find that with a lot of people, bringing your head down and back especially is a bad angle. And for some people, even just lying on the ground flat is already not the right angle for them. So the chair can be really helpful with that population as well.

Ambika: Definitely. And safe. Yeah, yeah.

Jo: So just to take us through, like, a little bit more about the logistics of, say, you want to start working in aged care and working in nursing homes with chair yoga. How did you get started there? Did you just reach out to particular places or is it through people who you knew who were residents there?

Ambika: I contacted everyone. Firstly, I telephoned everywhere. So for the larger ones that have multiple homes, I would just contact HR or just the head office, basically, and just ask who the person of contact was, who their lifestyle coordinator was, that kind of thing. Yeah. And then once I found out who that person was, then I would contact them either by email or telephoning them. And I had this basic, this template email that I would send to them all. And I put my experience, but then also the bullet pointed benefits of what their residents may experience. So not only the joint mobilisation, the muscle strength, but also the relaxation benefits. Benefits, too. And the neurological benefits. And kind of went from there. Yeah. And there are a few places, especially the larger ones, that have the multiple homes. If one nursing home decided to do it, then another would find out that they were doing it and then they would contact me. Was great. But, yeah, yeah, I basically contacted them all. It's a. It is a long process because you can't just. It's not like a studio where you might rock up the next week and teach. There's a lot that you need to submit. You need, obviously, a police cheque and. And first aid that one would hope that we. We all have these days anyway. But then also in some aged care facilities, they wanted you to have an aged care cheque as well, or so.

Jo: I've never encountered an aged care cheque. Is that like the police cheque? Like, is it just a website that you can apply to or how does that work?

Ambika: Yeah, it's the same website as the police cheque. So is it Department of Human affairs? Is that it? I think it's Department of Human affairs. No.

Jo: We could google aged care cheque.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the same. I don't know if it's Victoria's the same, but in South Australia. Australia, if you go onto this one website, I'm pretty sure it's Department of Human affairs, probably.

Jo: I'm pretty sure that the working with children and the police cheque are the same website on the same.

Ambika: Yeah. And there's this list and. And you just bully. It is tick. Which one. Which ones you're applying for, basically. So some require more, some. Some don't require an aged care, some are fine with just having your certification, a qualification that you can teach I senior chair yoga or seeing older adults and first aid. They will want to see first aid, your insurance as well. But then there's this process of payments, whether it might be a very, very easy system set up where you would just. Once you've taught, then you would send them an invoice, like we do in yoga studios as subcontractors. But then there are. There are, there are some. And this is very similar to not only aged care facilities, but also some community centres here where it's a longer process. You. They will provide you with a purchase order and then from. From there you will send an invoice or. And you will either upload the invoice to their system and sometimes it can take about a six weeks to set it all up and then, like. I mean, it could then be smooth sailing and then you get paid maybe 30 every 30 days or something like that, depending on where you're teaching. But I actually have had some problems with some of the facilities where I ended up just having to leave because they just. They weren't paying me. I was constantly having to chase up my payment and I understand that they're biggest, they're big, and also a lot of people that would be working for them, or a lot of suppliers, because I was a supplier, a lot of their suppliers are big as well, and so they're probably fine with not being paid for a couple of months, but for me, this was my job, this is what I do. So I did need to be paid more regularly and not to have to chase it up, so I did have to, unfortunately, leave some places. But saying that though, like, many of them were great and would just pay on time.

Jo: So, yeah, it's a big hassle when you have to chase up the save. Like, when you're even just chasing up the purchase order multiple times. So you can send the invoice even if it's a place that you've been teaching at for years, like. Yeah, it can get very frustrating.

Ambika: A lot of councils are doing it now as well.

Jo: Yeah, yeah, that's how I know about it.

Ambika: Yeah.

Jo: Just in terms of pay rates, like, is it different from different premises, between different rest homes or is it pretty standard? Is it something that you set or is it something that they have a budget for? Like, how do you navigate that?

Ambika: Yeah, yeah. So if we're talking just the nursing homes, I actually, as part of my initial email, so before they even contacted me, I let them know what I charge.

Jo: Yeah, that's smart, because if that's not going to be within their budget, you don't really want to waste anyone's time, including your own, taking it further.

Ambika: Exactly, exactly. So there was. And what I charge is $100 and the class generally, at the nursing homes, at the aged care, generally goes for between 45 to 60 minutes. It just depends on when we get started because sometimes they're still kind of wheeling in the residence and that can sometimes take time. And afterwards as well, I like to go around to everybody and speak to every single individual who did the class and so that can sometimes take a bit of time as well. So we say 45 to. To 60 minutes for that. So, yeah, $100, whereas the council, basically, I've had to do a little bit of kind of, I suppose, bartering with them. It's been like, you know, I've said maybe $80 for the hour and then they've said, we only pay 65. So then I've said, well, how about 70? You know, that kind of thing? And, yeah, we've gone that way. If I have somebody who works for me in one of the nursing homes or within the aged care facilities, I pay $85. And that's pretty, pretty standard. Yeah.

Jo: And sometimes as well, especially if it's in a community centre setting, like, you've got to move a bunch of tables before you can even get started.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Some can be really. Can be quite challenging. I did teach at a community centre, at one of the council community centres, and we couldn't move the table. It was a big table in the middle, so we had to sit around the table and all the chairs had arms as well. And so just things like that. It was just, we do really dead. We are working hard. And unfortunately, actually, that council didn't pay me for a long time, so I ended up having to leave that one. But saying that, though, some of the councils have been fabulous, so, yeah, I.

Jo: Bet you weren't sad to leave that big table goodbye, though, like get in the middle of every class.

Ambika: It was, yeah, it was. For me, it was a little bit strange to teaching it that way, but. But, you know, to be honest with you, though, that they all seem to really, really love it, so. And, yeah, yeah, there were a few things that were a little bit weird for me, but then the feedback was always incredibly positive. Their faces were always incredibly positive at the end, so it was just.

Jo: Yeah, my weirdest experience, like, that was one time they put me in the room that was a giant basketball court at an adult education centre. And it was never clear if I was allowed to put chairs on the basketball court for the chair yoga class. I was just like, oh, my God.

Ambika: Oh, my God.

Jo: And it's actually kind of dangerous having a slidey wood floor underneath chairs for chair yoga. Like, ideally you'd have a yoga mat down underneath, but no one bought a.

Ambika: Yoga mat, so, yeah, that would have been interesting. I can imagine.

Jo: And it was always a really quiet class. Like, I think the most people I ever had was four people in a session on this, like, cold, draughty basketball court.

Ambika: Wow. Wow. Yeah, I can imagine. Imagine how awkward that would be.

Jo: Yeah, we did a lot of pranayama in that class.

Ambika: Bet you did. Yeah. I have taught one class before. This was at a nursing home and there were only a few people and there was a lady and a man, both maybe late eighties, early nineties, and she didn't like him. And so for the whole class, she was just. I mean, not abusing him, but would just be mumbling, mumbling things under her breath because he did sit next to her and then she got up and she moved to a different chair and then was sitting opposite him. And so that was very awkward, that class. I just tried very hard to just brush it off and just continue talking and smiling. I don't think he really knew what was going on, though, but she definitely did.

Jo: And so do you, like, say there is a little bit of interpersonal chatter? Like, it's always a challenging line for me because I want people to have fun in the class and I'm not a particularly disciplinarian type of teacher, but I've actually had feedback from other students who find that distracting. And honestly, I don't love it either. Like, I don't mind if people ask questions, but if they're kind of starting to just really talk to each other in the class, like, that does start to impact on other people's experiences. How do you navigate those kind of situations?

Ambika: I think it depends on where I am with that. I think I do definitely feel like I have more control over the situation when it's in my studio or if it's at any studio, if I'm teaching a chair yoga class at any studio, the community centres. I do feel like I have a lot more ownership of those classes as well. But when I'm going into the nursing homes, I think that's very. It's pretty normal. Anyway, from my memory, every single class there has been kind of almost chaos. But not in a negative sense, though. Just a lot going on, because there can also be a lot of outbursts, and that is very, very natural and normal to happen in an aged care facility, especially in a dementia unit in an aged care facility. And these outbursts can be really distracting to the other residents, and so then they might say something back and then, you know, and this. Yeah, it's kind of part of it. If you. If you want to teach it at aged care facilities, then I think that that's. That just comes with it. Yeah.

Jo: Yeah. And I'm sure that people respond, whether it's a subconscious thing or not. Like, if they see you getting more tense and more stressed, that would definitely affect the energy of the whole room because your nervous system is really informing everyone else's. So if you just take it in stride and move on, like, I think that's probably smart.

Ambika: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's mostly great, and I walk away feeling fab. And after speaking to all of them at the end of the class as well. I know. I know. That is so beneficial. So, yeah, the chatting and all of that, it's just part of it.

Jo: And it's a different life. Like, if someone has a busy job and a busy family and comes to yoga for their peace of mind and for peace and quiet, it's a very different expectation to someone who maybe is coming to yoga for an activity to break up the day. That might be the afternoon activity for that day. So it is a little bit more of an exciting thing rather than like a serene, quiet, calm thing.

Ambika: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There are two women that are like besties, and they just giggle throughout the whole thing. They giggle. They like. It's like they're just.

Jo: I feel like that's all good vibes.

Ambika: It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. They also. When we do certain things, if we're stretching an arm over the head, then they'll do the opposite, and then they'll touch hands and then giggle and.

Jo: Oh, that's so cute.

Ambika: It really is. It's very cute.

Jo: And so we might have touched on this already, but what do you find the most challenging about leading these types of classes?

Ambika: Hmm. But actually, this is. Yeah, this is happening right now, actually. My voice. I've ended up having to go see a specialist just a few weeks ago, and my vocal cords and my voice box just really strained. And that was since I was doing more of the aged care facilities and really pantomiming everything. And, I mean, I've always been an inspiration instructor. I mean, I was teaching dance and I was a performer and a yoga teacher. And so I've. I've always been using my voice in this way. And I suppose I'm now in my fifties and it hasn't happened before, and so yay that it's only now that I'm feeling a strained voice. But, yeah, and I think it was since working in the aged care. I mean, I'd love a little mic or something like that when I'm teaching because I do. You do really need to project and pantomime everything. So it's. Everything is bigger. Everything. It needs to be bigger. So. Yeah, yeah, that's probably one of the biggest struggles for me. Yeah, yeah.

Jo: I've experienced that teaching in schools and also sometimes teaching outdoors as well. It's like I. Luckily, with those classes, that's the only one of that class in that day. Because often I really feel like. I don't think I could do, like, three more like this when I don't really feel like that if I'm inside in a studio. And for people who want to do preventative stuff, there's actually heaps of resources on YouTube for vocal care. And one gym that I taught at brought in a vocal care coach. And there's lots of interesting things that you can do. Like, one that really stuck with me especially is straw breathing. And it's not like that we do in yoga. It's like you take a glass or a bottle of water and the more water in there, the more challenging it is. And you put like a straw in your mouth and you try and talk through the straw into the water and it does something to your, like, to your vocal cords and to your throat. It's like conditioning for your voice.

Ambika: Wow.

Jo: Yeah, there's definitely. There's YouTube videos about that. Often singers do it like mid show, you know, when it's their break, just to, like, have a little vocal recess.

Ambika: Wow. Great to hear. Yes. You know, I didn't even think about YouTubing but saying that, though, what you mentioned about schools, the specialist did say to me that he sees a lot of PE teachers.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah.

Ambika: Plus it's. It's a movement with, with, with voice work that he said. That is. That. That does it. Yeah.

Jo: Well, actually, I can put the link with the episode. One of my YouTube favourites is Doctor Adam Fields. And I discovered his videos for snoring, which was what I was looking for for me. And a lot of the snoring exercises I actually have found have really helped my teaching voice as well because it's toning a lot of the same muscles around your throat. And he has a whole playlist for vocal care as well.

Ambika: Wow, that's great. Good.

Jo: And he's a really good presenter as well. Like, they're pretty entertaining to do because a lot of them are making faces and making funny sounds and doing different things with your tongue. So, yeah, they're good. I've taught some of them in my classes since learning them for myself.

Ambika: Wow. Great. I'm keen. Very keen.

Jo: Highly recommend. And so we've kind of done the most challenging part. Like, what's your favourite part of working in this field and teaching these types of classes?

Ambika: My favourite part would definitely, and I suppose not. This doesn't happen so much in the nursing homes, but just in the other classes is the community aspect. I just love it. Love the conversations we have. And when somebody doesn't show up to class, we, you know, we're all genuinely worried about where that person is. It's a real community, definitely. And I know that for a lot of older adults that come to chair yoga, it's that appointment that they can't miss. If they are going to miss it, they'll certainly telephone me and let me know that they can't come. You know, it's. Yeah, yeah, I think that will probably be my most favourite, favourite part of it. And also just watching the progression as well, actually, like, seeing people accomplish tree pose that struggled at the start to even balance standing with both feet to the floor, you know, that's definitely, definitely rewarding and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do love that.

Jo: Yeah, I think it's really amazing because often there is this perception and some of it comes from people's doctors, where ageing is purely like a downhill process. It's like as you get older, things will get worse, you won't be able to do the same movements, there'll be less and less available to you in life and that's just part of getting older. So to actually see people progress and be able to do more and to feel better and like to help facilitate that, like, it's so amazing and people are so appreciative as well. Like, it's really powerful.

Ambika: Yep, exactly, exactly. And ageing. Ageing has helped me come into my body more and it's encouraged me to really focus on what I need and I didn't necessarily do that before, I think I was perhaps practising yoga with more of a, I suppose, wanting that result, more of an attachment to the result, but now it really is just about, okay, what do I need today? And how is yoga going to meet me? And that's such a bonus to ageing.

Jo: I've heard that from other people as well, how their relationship, their own yoga practises, really changed as they've got older. And another thing that I've heard as well is how maybe when people first start, they don't have that level of trust and awareness in their own bodies. So they would do something because the teacher told them to do something. Or if a certain pose hurt, you would just think, well, it's meant to hurt. And, you know, when I get better at it, it'll feel better, rather than kind of going, oh, this version isn't working for me. Like, what could I do instead?

Ambika: Yeah, exactly, exactly. You become wiser. Hate to say it, but, you know, because, you know, when you're younger, you don't want to hear that. You don't want to hear, you know, and oldie say you're wiser the older you get, you know, but it's true, you do, you really do. Like, I embrace. I embrace. I so much more now in my body and I now understand more and I understand that I can stretch a muscle, I can mobilise a joint, but I can't change the shape of my bones, my, you know, and so I am going to pull back in certain poses and not push and, yeah, it's great. It's beautiful.

Jo: And it's a privilege to get older.

Ambika: It is.

Jo: And it's a privilege to be able to move your body and somehow it's not as important. Touch your toes is the cliche example, but just to be able to move freely and do what you need to do suddenly is much more of a priority than like, trying to get into the splits or anything like that.

Ambika: I often say at the end of my classes when we're practising gratitude, I'll say gratitude to the 40 trillion cells that make up your body so you can do what you just did. How awesome is that? You know?

Jo: Yeah.

Ambika: Beautiful miracles, aren't we?

Jo: And you might have already just said this, but if you could distil everything that you've learned and everything that you teach down to one core essence, what do you think that would be?

Ambika: I suppose know where you're at.

Jo: I'm.

Ambika: And let the yoga meet you where you're at. I think that's it. And that's what I want, like 20 year olds to think about when they're practising yoga as well, not just older adults. Know where you're at. Let the yoga meet you because it will. You don't have to go anywhere. Let the yoga meet you.

Jo: Amazing. I love it. And I also love as well that you will be sharing your wisdom here in Naa Melbourne soon in September at our studio. Just do you want to tell people a little bit about your upcoming training and how people can find out more?

Ambika: Yes, I would love to. Thank you. So it's a chair yoga teacher training for yoga teachers mostly. But if you're not a yoga teacher and you have the desire to teach chair yoga, please get in contact with me and I'll say my website details in a moment. So this chair yoga teacher training is going to just teach the, the foundations of chair yoga. So we'll go through the movement part of it, we'll break down the movement part into mobility, strengthening, stretching and relaxing. And we'll also go through some breathing techniques and meditation techniques. And we'll look at the common health factors associated with ageing. We'll discuss how chair yoga can help with these common health factors. There's quite a few of them, and we'll have lots of practise teaching together as well. And there is a little bit of an assessment too, where you'll just hand in an assignment, but you've got three months to do the assignment after the weekend training, and that will just be on health factors associated with ageing. And so it'll be on Saturday and Sunday. I think it's the 14th and 15 September. I'm saying. I think it's because I can't remember whether Saturday is the 14th or whether Saturday is the 15th. So it's either the 14th or 15th or the 15th and 16 September. And it's at the fabulous garden of Yoga.

Jo: It is. And we'll pop the dates and the links in the show notes because I don't have them in front of me either.

Ambika: That's fine. Sorry, at the top of my head, I think it is the 14th and 15th. And all of this information is on the website, which is theyogasocial.com. and if you just follow the, the drop down menu under our trainings and you'll see the senior chair yoga teacher training Melbourne. It's going to be great.

Jo: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So great to talk to you.

Ambika: I'm honoured. I'm honoured to be chatting with you. Thank you so much for asking.

Rane: We hope you enjoyed hearing from Ambika. We've put all her social media, chair, yoga training and website links in our show notes on our website podcast dot flow artist.com if you'd like to learn more. And again, a quick reminder that we'd love it if you could leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or leave us some stars on Spotify. This is a great way to help others find the podcast and show your support. We also love hearing from our listeners and finding out what you enjoy about the podcast. We really appreciate it when you share our posts about each episode or leave us a comment online. Find us at the Flow Artist Podcast Facebook page or look for @ranelovesyoga or @gardenofyoga on Instagram. We are a DIY operation and your community support really helps us out. We'd like to express our gratitude to Ghostsoul for granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to cheque out Ghostsoul dot bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express. He aroha nui maua kia koutou katoa sending you big big love.