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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane Bowen and this is the Flow Artist Podcast. Together with my co host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. Before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode we speak to Amy Pickett Williams, who is a grief psychotherapist with over 25 years experience, a yoga teacher and the founder of the Light Movement. The Light Movement is a non profit with the mission of providing compassionate community centred support using somatic based methods to help individuals grow with and heal from grade grief and trauma. In our conversation with Amy, we discuss the amazing story of what led her to found the Light Movement and we learn about some of the science behind Somatic practises. We also talk about her upcoming grief and trauma informed teacher training. It's a great conversation and Amy has an incredible personal story to share. So let's get into it. All right. Amy, it's so great to finally get the chance to speak with you. Perhaps we could just start by telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up.

Amy: Absolutely. So I've been a psychotherapist for the past 26 years and I'm also a yoga teacher and I was born in the state of Washington in the United States, but came to Colorado for graduate school in the late 90s and I stayed. The Rocky Mountains just called me.

Jo: So I read your blog post on the beginnings of the Light Movement and it's an absolutely incredible story which also involves mountains. Would you mind sharing it here?

Amy: I would love to share it. So as I shared a bit ago, I've been a psychotherapist for over 25 years. My work started out in bone marrow transplant and oncology in the late 90s when we were bone marrow transplanting everybody and we realised that not everybody should be getting a bone marrow transplant. So I, a lot of my patients died. I went from there into paediatric oncology and then worked in community based mental health and started my private practise. And throughout the years my dad, who was very, very special to me, he was an education lawyer and he spoke nationally on mandated reporting, so reporting child abuse. He spoke nationally on trying to prevent school violence, which is something our country struggles with a lot of. And his last big Hurrah. That he really tried to enforce was to ensure all children, including transgender children, had safe public bathrooms and public schools. Sadly, he didn't accomplish that, but that was. He was always driven to ensure all children were safe. And he used to speak to me, and he'd say, amy, you should speak to this work of death and dying and grief and loss and this new thing that you're teaching me about, about sexual somatic healing, because he'd never heard that term before. And I always said, dad, I'm a psychotherapist. I'm an introvert. That's not my cup of tea. However, he always inspired me because he was known as a gentle giant. He stood at 6, 5, and he was one of the most humble people I'd ever met in my life. And so I was always inspired that he could speak to huge crowds to really make a difference and stay humble. So, tragically, step forward all the way to Covid. My husband and I have three young children. Not super young now, they were then. And our youngest had some pretty severe health issues, and so we had to be more isolated than most until he was back. They are. All three of them were vaccinated. And if you all recall younger children, it took longer to get them vaccinated, and so we had to stay in more. And so one of the things that we did living in the Rocky Mountains and have always done is camp. And so we would go camping with my parents as much as we could during COVID And my parents have an rv. We don't have an rv, but they have one. And so one very, very gusty, windy day when we were returning back from a camping trip, my parents went to return their RV to where they store it, and a big gust of wind knocked my dad over as he was closing the gate, and tragically, he fell back on his head. He ended up with a massive brain bleed, and two days later, we had to withdraw life support. And it was a horrific time for our family. Obviously, Covid was hard for all of humanity. The tragic piece of my dad's death, not from dying from COVID but from something such a freak accident was horrific. My oldest son was. My dad was his hero. He struggled a lot during that time. My mom and dad got married right after college, and even though they're very liberal, they had traditional roles. And so my mom hadn't handled finances and all of that. And so during that time, for quite a bit of time during COVID probably for almost a couple years, I would take care of my mom. I had to help her with her finances. I was trying to care for my three kids. My parents had helped us during COVID and so now I was helping my kids. Thank goodness I have an amazing husband. I had to stop seeing a lot of my clients, and I had to contain my grief, which is a grief therapist for 25 years. That was something that was very foreign to me. But I had to, because I had to continue to support my mom and my children. So eventually, fast forward. Our youngest got vaccinated. All three of them did. They went back to school. My mom learned how to take care of the things that my dad used to do. And I was able to really, you know, dig in and continue to see clients. And my mom said to my husband and I, why don't you, the two of you, go away? They used to say, my parents would say, you guys can go away for three nights once a year. And my mom said, I cannot handle three nights with your three boys, but I can do two nights. And so my husband and I went away to Ojo Caliente, which are some hot springs in New Mexico. So about five hours south of us. And we went there, and there's some beautiful, beautiful scenery. And my husband's really into mountaineering and climbing. And there was a very steep mesa outside the hot springs. And he said, why don't we go for this hike? And I agreed. And so we went up to the top of this beautiful mesa that was very, very steep and got up to this beautiful mica mine, and it looked like shimmering diamonds crunching on our feet. And so slowly we started. Decided it was time to go back down. And as we're heading to that last part, which is the steep side, steep, steep mesa. I was going down about a third of the way, and there was a very, very steep section, and there was this juniper tree strutting out. And do you all have juniper trees in Australia?

Jo: No, but I know what they look like and what they smell like.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we. I held onto the juniper tree, and being the vegan and the hippie that I am after it, it helped me down this path. I hugged the juniper tree. My husband is not a vegan or a hippie, but he's like, yes, Amy, I'm sure this tree has helped a lot of people. And then we start going down. And the last section, the very steepest part section, my dad. My husband says, amy, do you want me to lead this hike? And I said, it happened to be my birthday two years ago. And I said, as an Aries, my Birthday's in March, and I'm stubborn. No, I will lead this hike. It is my birthday. So I started down and I tripped and I fell over 40ft. I ended up with over 600 cactus spines. Do you all have cactus in Australia?

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. They're not native, but lots of people have them in their gardens. And anyone who's repotted one knows what that's all about.

Amy: Yes, and I eventually came to a stop, but I shouldn't have come to a stop. I should have gone about 100ft and I would not be here today. But miraculously, another juniper tree stopped my fall. What is my spirit tree now? So we rushed to the hospital. I'll save all a lot of the gory details there, but basically they said I had an incomplete fractured tibia. And they said, you can make it back to Denver because it's incomplete. I had 600 cactus spine, over 600 cactus spines. The good news is I was terrified. I had a brain bleed. And the only thing I remember at that during that fall is being terrified that I was going to die how my dad did from a brain bleed. So we waited to tell my mom and our three children until we knew I didn't have a brain bleed. And lots of bruising. And they finally said after about 12 hours, you are welcome to go back to Denver, have them take a look at everything. My husband went to get the car and I was waiting in the waiting room. And when he came back in to get me, I had fully passed out again. So they readmitted me. Fortunately, in our country, there's very steep insurance bills. But they did not give me another copay. They said maybe she has a belly bleed because they had scanned my entire body, but they had not scanned my belly. And so they scanned my belly, and I did not have a belly bleed, but instead they found a mass. And they said, when you get back to Denver, they need to look at this. So you get back to Denver. And it turns out that I had kidney cancer. So that juniper tree saved my life twice. Some people like to joke with me and say the 600 cactus spines saved. Saved my life. But I'm much more for my spirit tree. So in my recovery, my mom is doing much better. My boy, our three boys, we have three boys are back in school. And I finally had the chance to grieve my dad. I was. I was not able to see clients because I was recovering from them removing a big chunk of my kidney. And I had the chance to really start to grieve. And I had listened to and I listened and I heard my dad. And my dad said, amy, this is your time to teach. And so I chose to listen. And so In September of 2023, a group of volunteers and I formed a night to illuminate grief. It was on the winter solstice, the darkest day, the darkest night of the year. And we came together and I taught somatic tools that I'd been utilising for many, many, many years with my clients and for myself. And we brought together, we're not a religious organisation, but we were able to bring together faith representatives from as many religions as we could. So we had Buddhists, we had Muslims, we had Jewish rabbis, we had Christians, we had Native American, we had Hindu. All come together. And if you'll recall, in the fall of 2023 was when Gaza and Israel exploded, the conflict and the horror that was happening. And what was so incredible in this event is we had the Muslims and the Jewish faith representatives come together to say, we have to stand in solidarity. Grief is the one human condition none of us are immune from. And it was such a powerful event. We had about 300 people in person, we had about 300 people, virtually all of grassroots. None of us were marketing people, but we all were able to come together. And about two weeks after that event, my dad's voice came back to me and he said, you work is not done. And so from there, a group of volunteers, we formed a nonprofit. And the nonprofit is called Light Movement. And Light stands for Love in Grief held together. And we have four goals. The first is to remind people that they are not alone in their grief. The second is to teach the science of grief, because there is science to it. And the somatic mind, body based tools. And for some, mind, body, spirit, soul based tools to support integration and finding meaning and purpose. It's important to say that we don't say things happen for a reason. We know some religious traditions do believe that that's not what we say in our nonprofit. But once something has happened that's so hard and so horrible, we need to integrate it into our bodies and then we find purpose. Next, what will I do next? And our third goal is to connect with resources to be able all people that have grief and loss have support. So we connect with a lot of other nonprofits and people to ensure that there's support for them. And the fourth goal is to stand in solidarity for all. All people, all people and all types of grief and loss. So that's not only the death of a human or a pet that's loss of health, that's loss of independence, loss of relationship, loss of sense of identity, loss of sense of safety and peace, which is something our world is really struggling with. Wherever that loss is, whatever that loss is, we support it. And so from there, our nonprofit ended up. We have somatic based classes in person and we're starting to build virtual. We offer workshops, we're speaking at several national conferences this summer. The American Psychological association, the National Children's Grief Symposium, the National association of Professional Chaplains, and many, many more. We offer retreats, we offer trainings, we offer continuing ed trainings for mental health professionals and medical professionals and chaplains. And we're going to be offering, we think, the first ever grief and trauma informed yoga teacher training. There are many trauma informed, but this will be a grief and trauma informed. It will have adaptive yoga, neurodiversity, children's yoga. And our goal is to really get people to understand that grief and trauma experience so that if, even if they're in a wheelchair, they will be able to teach these somatic tools and yoga tools to as many people as possible. And we have a social justice lens in the sense that we hope that as people learn these tools, they'll morph it into their communities and cultures. And a beautiful example I'll give is we have a volunteer in Nigeria and she said, in my country, with the genocides that happened, we sing. And I said, and I said, that is beautiful. Because somatic is not just yoga. It's singing, it stimulates the vagus nerve, it's walking, it's swimming, it's dancing, it's cooking, it's gardening and there's, there's art, there's so many tools. And so our goal is to be able to really help people understand. I know I'm talking a lot, but I feel so passionate about it. What we know is that there are so many grief theories that don't work for people and people get stuck in their grief. And what we want to educate people in is that it lives in our body. So talk therapy, even though I was trained as a talk therapist 26 years ago now it doesn't work fully. We have to utilise both the body and the mind and that is what light is.

Jo: That's so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing all of that and everything that you do in the world, like it's sounds like exactly what our world needs right now and more of. And you've touched on this a bit with what you were just saying about somatic therapy and like Somatics is a term that we are seeing more and more online and especially in trauma informed spaces. I'd love it if you could unpack a little bit more about, like, what somatics means and the similarities and the differences when it comes to yoga.

Amy: Absolutely, yeah. So somatic is. So soma is a whole, whole being, whole organism. So if you think of soma, it's the mind, it's the body and for some it's spirit and soul. It embod. It's all parts. First in yoga, you know, we talk about physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. It's all parts of who we are. And so somatic practises utilise all our full body as we work with it. Yoga is a somatic practise. It's one of many somatic practises. Obviously, I'm biassed towards yoga, as I believe you all are too. And I recognise so many other tools can also work for people like wheelie, grief hikes, Another perfect example, and correct.

Jo: Me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the somatic principles were originally drawn out of yoga, right?

Amy: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. They were from thousands of years ago. I always say that Rumi was a somatic therapist, even though he didn't know it when he talks about the contraction and the expansion. Right. And part one of our frameworks for somatic therapy is the pendulating of the contraction and expansion. Well, yoga beautifully exemplifies that.

Jo: And for people who don't know that term, like, could you give us a simple example of what, what that practise could look like?

Amy: Yeah. Within yoga.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. Something that people might already be doing.

Amy: Oh, absolutely. And I'll give the example with yoga, but I'll give another couple examples too. And if it's okay, I'll share the three main somatic frameworks we use, which are also incorporated into yoga. So the three frameworks that we use is one that pendulating of the contraction and expansion. So if you think about, if you're from a yoga perspective, if you're utilising cactus arms and your heart. I know we're not on video, but we're. And we have cactus arms and we allow our shoulder blades to push together and we breathe in and then we bring our forearms together, our palms together in front of our face and we exhale and we go back and forth. That's the pendulum of contraction and expansion. Now, someone that may not be in yoga, breaststroke and swimming is contraction and expansion and most people know what breaststroke is. Right. So that's another Example, an example of vagus nerve stimulation, which is the tenth cranial nerve, which is why we know the body is connected, because it's a bi directional highway. It's brain to body 20% of the time. Body to brain 80%. Really over 80% and under 20%. And so we use that with, when we chant and yoga or we hum in yoga, but people sing and people hum outside of yoga. Right. And so that's another beautiful example of that. And then another one that we utilise, which is also yoga, is bilateral movement. So anytime we do a pose and then we do the other side, that would be example of bilateral movement. We also do that when we're walking. We do that when we're hiking for us in Colorado, skiing and snowshoeing. Right. So but we also do that when we're gardening, when we use both sides of our body or we're cooking. So those are our three main somatic frameworks we talk about in light, which is utilised in yoga and also utilised in so many other movement practises.

Jo: And I love that, that gives so many examples where maybe somebody already has these practises in their life, like they already love their garden or they already love skiing or something like that. And it just, I think, know, I guess it adds another layer to something that might be seen as a hobby where it's like, no, this can have like profound benefits for your mind and your body and it can be like a resource or a retreat when you are going through something really hard.

Amy: Yeah. And I think it's important to speak to that, that part of, when looking at polyvagal window of tolerance, which we use polyvagal theory a lot, part of looking at that window, and Dr. Daniel Siegel talks about it as well, is that part of doing these somatic practises helps us get back into a window of balance and peace. Instead of in that sympathetic above the window fight flight response, or the dorsal state below the window where we're immobile and we don't feel like we can move, which can happen so much of the time when we experience grief and trauma. So part of these tools is learning how to get back into the window. But the other piece that's just as important is how we expand our window. So so much of the time, for example, in my private practise and I have someone that came in and their child just died, their window, where they're in that peaceful, balanced state, is probably the size of a mouse house window. Right. But these practises, when we're not in that trauma or grief state can also benefit us from. To growing that window. So it's the size of like a sliding glass window, so that maybe when we experience maybe some lesser traumas or grief, like we get cut off on the road, we're not going to go immediately to that sympathetic state of anger, you know, and being like, what the heck are you doing? So part of that is these practises help us in the moment when we're in trauma and grief and also help us when we're not in trauma and grief to build that window.

Jo: And that actually leads me to something that I was really looking forward to asking you about, because I'd like to talk about the idea of like. Like pre grieving, like, say somebody that you love has a progressive disease and there's the immediate grief that comes with that. But also it feels like it could be a time to build your reserves or to kind of really establish some practises in the now that will help with the present moment emotions, but also help prepare you for. For future pain and sadness. Would you like to talk a little bit about what types of practises and even just a framework of thinking that could be helpful for that phase of. I guess, yeah, pre grieving is how I would think about it.

Amy: Yeah. Another term maybe we use like in the mental health world would be anticipatory grief. We know that it's going to happen, but we also know that we're grieving during that time as well. So if you think of a person, for example, with Alzheimer's or dementia, they haven't died yet, but you're continuing to feel that. That loss of their health, their loss of independence, their loss of being able, if you. If they're your partner, be able to do things with them. So it's really a grief cycle throughout. And interestingly, a lot of times when someone has a longer terminal illness, there isn't necessarily a trauma state to it. There's always grief in trauma, but there's not always trauma in grief. And they're both hard. I'm not going to say that one is better than the other. That's not the case. But when we have traumatic grief, we get stuck in that sympathetic state, we get stuck in that dorsal immobile state versus sometimes with the anticipatory grief. If we have that time to grieve, we're still going to ride that roller coaster up and down all the time. Right. But we may not get stuck and so practises to utilise during that time. I think you Asked really are. It depends on the space that they're in. So if they're in that sympathetic state or that in yoga rajastic state, we're going to utilise a practise that's more active. So walking, swimming, even running are good ones. Right. A more active vinyasa practise, really important. If they're in that dorsal state, that immobile state, we may even just do some gentle soothing on our face. Acupressure points in our ears which connect to the nerves, which connect to the vagus nerve. Right. Maybe a breathing practise. Even just the longer exhale can be so helpful when someone's just like, I can't even get out of bed. So we're not going to say to someone if who can barely get out of bed, let's go for a walk. Just like if someone is super antsy and amped up, we're not going to say let's do a yoga nidra or a meditation right now they'd say to me if I was, if they were my client, they'd say, I'm going to leave you as a therapist, Amy, because that's not going to work for me. Right. So we have to find the tools, have to meet that mood.

Rane: Would you like to do some yoga with Jo or myself? Of course you would. That's why I'm excited to let you know we're now offering lifetime access to our online video library. We've now reached our goal of 250 chair yoga, aerial yoga, nurturing yoga and pilates, yin yoga, gentle yoga and self massage class videos. This means that the early bird price of $89 will end at the end of June and the price will go up to $120. So get in now to take advantage of this great offer. Previously these videos were only available to our monthly members, but we know the subscription model doesn't work for everyone, so we're excited to be able to share in this way. Just like our live classes, our videos all include multiple options for accessibility so that you can practise in the way that feels right for you. We also include options to improvise props if you're practising at home. We've been getting some great feedback about these classes. You can check them out in the video section of gardenofyoga.com and there's even a few free samples there to help get you started.

Jo: Yeah, I think that's so important. And when you are like, you've kind of mentioned your volunteers and your clients, like, could you Explain a little bit about how the framework of your organisation works. Like, do you have. Do people get in touch with you when they are looking for your help? Or is it more like a yoga therapy, one on one situation? Or like, would there be a local class of like yoga for grief practises? Like, how does it kind of unfold?

Amy: Yeah, so when I speak to my clients, that's actually my private practise, which is, to be honest with you, the way I. I fortunately can make a living. Because currently we're all volunteers with light movement and everything is. All our classes are donation based to ensure that it's accessible to all people. So our volunteers, we have well over a hundred of them and currently we have one in England. We hope to get more in other countries. We want this to be global and our part of what our volunteers do is they can offer classes, yoga classes or an art class. Our big goal is to really form a virtual platform where people can tune in and be able to a class to get support. And so that's partly what volunteers do. We also have volunteers that help with outreach because we want this known all over the world. We have volunteers that help us some with fundraising, because I cannot tap into my home equity line of credit anymore. My husband said no more. So fundraising is a huge piece, which is why we're going to have our very first fundraiser next month. And the other piece that we are always looking for is just people that want to take our volunteer training and then want to try to make a difference in their communities, the classes. While we are building our virtual platform for everyone, we also help. We can spread pockets of light all over the world. So they may learn our tools or they may already know the tools. And they say, you know what, I want to start this in my community because my community just suffered a natural disaster, or my community just suffered from a lot of violence, or there have been a lot of people that have been dying recently in my own community and I want to be able to support them, whether it's in a school, whether it's in a senior living facility, whether it's in a community centre for staff. Our other big area that we want to do is the grief of burnout and compassion fatigue. So we want to spread that knowledge to medical providers and teachers, because teachers are really burning out, at least in our country. So that's something we also are really trying to do. And yeah, I could go on and on about what volunteers could do, but we have a lot of opportunities.

Jo: Yeah, it sounds amazing and this could be A good time to talk about your fundraiser because this podcast episode will be out in time for people to be able to be a part of that. So I'd love to learn more.

Amy: I would love that, yes. So our fundraiser, the local events in Colorado, will be a Day of Grief Hike and Somatic Tools. We are also going to have virtual events for people to tune into anywhere. And we want to build that virtual platform even more and more and more. For example, you all teaching a yoga class would be amazing. So I'll put a plug in for you all. And so that's our hope. And then also to those classes, we'll go on to our new up and newer up and coming YouTube page for people to tune back into to be able to say, I need a class because I'm grieving right now. And so part of our fundraiser is for people that are yoga teachers anywhere, whether it happens that day or not, to say, I want to offer a class for light. And the only requirement we have is that they are trauma informed, which means basically they're inviting people to try things. Right? And they say that they're a volunteer or supporter of light. And the only reason we say that is we want people to know that we didn't steal Heal anyone's yoga videos. And so that's our only request. And then hopefully people will. We'll have this beautiful YouTube page in the next couple months that has hundreds of videos for people to tune into and then hopefully also make a donation to our nonprofit so that we can continue to grow.

Jo: Amazing. And I'd also like to swing back to something that you mentioned, which is the burnout or compassion fatigue. Because I know with my classes, actually a lot of people who come to me are working in healing fields, like their carers, their teachers, they work in health care and they're already coming to especially aerial yoga for me because it feels so soothing and nurturing for them. Could you talk about some of the practises that can be helpful when people are feeling really depleted?

Amy: Yes, I. Number one, I think, is going out in nature and utilising the five senses. That's my number one go to. Right? And when it's nice outside, try to go barefoot on the earth. Some people believe I do as well about the electromagnetic waves and the earth's surface and the earth. And so just being barefoot and not holding onto a phone for a bit can be so helpful. And then tuning into those senses. Right? Look around and five things. What do you see? What are four things that you hear? What are three things that you can feel on the earth or on the skin, the temperature of your body, right. And then what can you smell, what can you taste? And ideally you can do bilateral movement where you give yourself a little hug, where you place one hand on the heart and the other hand on the other side of the chest and you tap back and forth as you're visualising and seeing and hearing those five things. That's a beautiful grounding practise that people can do at any time and that can be so helpful. And then the other piece is really forming a habit and a routine of doing those types of somatic practises. And every day, whether it's that, whether it's singing in the shower, whether it's singing in the shower with warm water and then going to cold water to notice that sensation, ideally maybe it's a yoga class. Even if it's 10 minutes every day or a meditation or a walk with your dog. There's so much around animal assisted therapy too. One beautiful tool, if people have animals that I always love to share because I had a therapy dog for many years, is if you have a dog that is not a puppy, that's about, you know, a Labrador size, you can put your body right up next to them and put your arm around them and you can co regulate breath. They will match you, you will match them. If you have a smaller dog or a cat, not a puppy or kitten, just because they're more amped up, you can put them on your belly and you will co regulate and match breath. Another beautiful somatic practise. Practise.

Jo: One of our cats is very onto that practise and does it for us while we're asleep sometimes.

Amy: Awesome. I love it.

Jo: Tearing her little head off.

Amy: That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

Jo: It's so cute.

Amy: Yeah. And I think one other piece that's important for grief and also the burnout is co regulation is connection with another. And number one way to work with grief and of all types is connection with others. And that's our first goal, is to remind people they're not alone and so be with a friend, find a neighbour, find a family member, your dog, your cat, your bunny, maybe your kangaroo in Australia.

Rane: I wish we had a kangaroo.

Amy: Yeah, there's kangaroo yoga in Colorado. You do? I haven't been yet, but our board, our board president went recently. Yeah.

Jo: Wow. That actually brings me to something that I often do see come up in, like literature around grief. And I think it should be even more widely shared, like you mentioned drawing on your community of support and your friends. And I know for a lot of people as the friend, a lot of people don't know what to do when someone that they love has experienced a huge loss and often they're afraid of doing the wrong thing so they don't reach out at all. Or you know, like those cliches that you mentioned about like, oh, everything happens for a reason. And even like while this is always said with love, people who will kind of send a message to be like, okay, just reach out if you need anything. And sometimes even that cannot be super helpful because when people are really in like a very tender state, like the initiative of reaching out and thinking of the thing that they need that that person can help them with is just not something that's going to come to mind. So I'd love to know your suggestions for friends who want to help. Some things that do tend to be more helpful and some advice about do not do's because I think that can help people to know as well. So that you can choose something that feels like it will be helpful for the person in need. But also I guess a range of options depending on your own capacity.

Amy: Yes, absolutely. And I'm going to put a little plug into our volunteer training. Just it's only an hour and a half. I do it once a month on Zoom. It is good in Australia time because it says 6pm on Thursday evening.

Jo: Perfect.

Amy: Yes. So we include slides on this. So that's why I'm putting a plug in. And it does not commit anyone to volunteering. If anything, it's just more tools for people. Right. Ideally they'll be interested, but in those. And I talk about slides, the first and foremost thing is there are no words when someone grieves. And if you can remember that, you will be miles ahead of other people because you cannot fully relate to their experience. And it's important to be present in their experience. So many people are terrified, especially in intense loss. Like, I mean my, My Heart Song is working with families who have experienced the death of a child and every parent will go to that place of like, oh my God, that could happen to me. And then they don't show up. So you have to show up. What you, the things you don't say. And there's a lot of them and I go into that in the training. But you never compare, you never say, well, I know that because my dad died. So I know that I don't, I don't know what it was like for you, your dad, when he died, I can share. I Had these feelings and I can maybe relate to the emotions, but the story is always different. So no words. And then also being able to just say, I am here. One of the best things about technology is that you can put a reminder on your phone to check in with that person as often as you can. So for example, it's, you know, maybe once a week at start and then it's once a month and always around the anniversary. So much of the time when people experience the death of a loved one, they say by the end of year one, everyone has forgotten. Well, that's the beauty of technology. There's no excuse. Now our phones can do repeats every year to say, hey, call Jane today, the anniversary of her sister's death.

Jo: That's a great idea. One that I've been doing with people I know who are going through something hard is offering to drop off some food. And like, like a homemade meal is quite good, like because I like cooking. But also it can be no contact. It's like I can drop this off or it can be a pop in as well. So I feel like for me that's a good level of showing support that doesn't require too much from that person. Depending on what they have on going on on the day. Like, are there any other like practical things that you think like that you do tend to notice are helpful for people when they're going through a really hard time?

Amy: Food is perfect, right? It's the, it's probably one of the best things you can do for someone and just don't forget that person, right? Like, like a month later when that meal train has ended, say, hey, you know what? I was thinking about this food the other day that I remember you and I ate together. I'm going to bring you another meal. And they may say no, no, no, that's okay. And just say, well you can freeze it and if this isn't the right time, I'm going to check back in in two weeks. Right? So that's a big one. With families that have children offering to help bring children right to activities can be really, really helpful. Helping with laundry, you know, helping with if something yard work. I mean any of those things are very practical tools. Most of the time people's gonna, people are gonna say, you're gonna ask what can I do to help? And they're gonna say, I don't know because they're probably in that dorsal state, that immobile state, right. So instead it's giving some suggestions of saying, these are the things that I'm going, I'd like to do. Of these two or three, which is the most priority?

Jo: I've got another friend who's a big one for cooking up a cleaning service. She's moved out of Melbourne now, but she's done that for a few people where she can't be there in person. But, you know, she can take that one thing off and get their house cleaned for them.

Amy: Yes, 100%. Or those, like, meals, you know, in our country of grubhub. Right. Where you can get a gift certificate for food is another example. So they can just order those prepped. Either like a takeout meal or a prepped meal.

Jo: Yeah. And if they're getting a lot of casseroles, that could be a good way to choose something different.

Amy: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's really important too, with food, those fresh veggies and fruit. And the reason why I say that I talk a lot about when someone's grieving to try to eat about every three hours to make sure it's a protein and a carb. Even vegans can do that. You know, dried fruit and nuts is like a go to for me. And the reason why that's so important is that when we're not grieving and we have, say, a bunch of candy, we get that sugar high and it can be fun and then we get that crash. But when we're grieving or we've experienced trauma, a sugar high can feel like anxiety, can and can feel like that sympathetic state and then that crash can feel like that dorsal state. So having those snacks every three hours, not full meals every three hours, but those snacks, is something that I say is so important when we're grieving.

Jo: Yeah. And just going back to what you've been saying about the vagus nerve as well, like, I feel it in myself. Like anytime something is going on with my emotions, like, I really notice the difference in my digestion. So anything that might be just easier for your body and, I don't know, any kind of digestive upset that you might normally have, I feel like, would probably be emphasised when you are really stressed or you are really upset. So foods that are going to support that sound Great.

Amy: Yes, 100%. Mm.

Jo: So this is a bit of a detour and it's something that comes from me and Ron's own life because he had cancer as well. And just as grieving has a whole language of unhelpful cliches around, seems like cancer has its own special sub genre of cliche language, especially relating to, like, bravery and Gratitude and like a set of expectations for the patient that come for their own set of challenges. And even the idea that to beat your cancer, you have to be positive all the time or when you're in remission, even though your life has changed a lot and sometimes not in good ways, you have to be grateful that you are still alive and for the experience that you had. I'd really appreciate your perspective because you've had your own health challenges, but also you've supported so many people through cancer. Yeah. I'd love to know your thoughts around it, because you've seen it from all sides, probably.

Amy: I have, yeah. And I think that's a really good thing to ponder for a moment. I mean, one thing that I love to share with clients and what has helped me is that when we work through this process and with this process, we hold both, right? We hold that fear that it could happen again. We hold that trauma when we were experiencing it, and we hold. Deb Dana, who is a therapist that works a lot with Stephen Porges with Polyvagal Theory, coined the term glimmers. So there's so many triggers, right? And we all have them. We're all human, right? And including me. Right. All of us do. But we also have glimmers. We have those times of hope. We have those moments that we can appreciate. Even the smallest moments. Right? Like my husband most days, brings me coffee in the morning. That's a glimmer, right? It's awesome.

Rane: Good.

Amy: Good men.

Rane: Sometimes two.

Amy: Yeah, I agree. I had two today. And so part of it. And Dr. Ariel Schwartz is a very good. Is a mentor of mine and a friend of mine. And she speaks. She's done a lot around it. She. I love what she does and I. I share this a lot. That event when we are going through trauma, we have the triggers over here, we have the glimmers over here. And I'm. You guys, you can see it, but other people can't. One hand is on one opposite end of the room, one hands on the up of the other. But through somatic practise and connection with others, eventually we can end up allowing the glimmers to hold the triggers. We can allow the hope to hold this fear. We can allow the love to hold the terror. And so that's part of what this somatic work is. That's what integration is, right? We can integrate the two to know they are both a part of who we are. We're human. We're going to be scared that the cancer is going to return. That's Human, we're going to be scared that another loved one's going to die because we've already had two people die in our life. Right? But we can also hold on to that hope that every day is a new day, that there's beauty in nature, there's beauty in holding our pet and holding our loved ones and getting coffee with a friend or getting coffee from our partners.

Rane: One thing I'm kind of curious about, I guess, you know, at the end of or near the end of my cancer experience, I lost my stomach and you obviously lost a kid kidney. And I guess for me it was quite a large change to the way I lived my life. And there's this kind of, I don't know, I guess, constant reminder that there's something missing there. I'm just sort of wondering if you had thoughts about maybe the type of grief around losing a part of your body, yourself.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And a part of your body, I mean, and your sake, I mean, your. Your stomach is a huge piece to who you are, right? And so I think a piece of that is honouring the grief around it. That. That is hard, right? And we can't deny that. Right? I mean, it's not about. We don't heal our grief. I always stay clear of that. We can work on healing, but we're never healed. And I. And this is important, actually, I talk a lot about this theory. Lois Tonkin wrote one article back in the 1995, and what she wrote about was she had a patient who had a child that died, and the patient said to her, my grief will never shrink, but I will continue to grow. So if you think about, in my case, a saguaro cactus, those weren't the ones that gave me spines, but those tall saguaro cactuses or those tall trees get struck by lightning, that lightning strike will never, ever shrink. But we can continue to grow around that scar. You will always have a reminder that your stomach is no longer with you. I will always have a reminder that part of my kidney was removed. And I can continue to integrate this process, knowing that every time I go to my checkup, there will be that fear. Right. For all of us that have experienced cancer or some other serious illness. And I will continue to grow so that it's not the entire part of who I am, it's a part of me, but it's not all of me. And when we go through a serious illness or a serious trauma, for a while, it feels like it's all of us. But eventually that scar does not shrink. We Just continue to grow.

Rane: That's beautiful.

Jo: Yeah. And that leads me to something that you have mentioned, but I'd love to explore into a bit more because we're both yoga teachers and a lot of our listeners are yoga teachers. You mentioned your training for yoga teachers moving with our grief. And I know that a lot of teachers would have had the experience, experience of supporting a student through their grieving and sometimes we don't even know that we're doing it. Sometimes people might be grieving and come to class and then three months later they'll tell you how helpful the practises have been and you've had no idea that you know what they've been working with the other hours of their week. I think that a lot of teachers might also feel like they don't necessarily have like the skills or the resources or the training to equip them to support people through their grieving. Like it might not have even been mentioned in their teacher training. What kind of things do you teach on your course?

Amy: Yeah, so our course, like I said, we feel like it's going to be a one of a kind. We're really excited. We have some experts in the field that are doing it and every part of that yoga teacher training will have that trauma and grief informed lens, through philosophy, through poses, through all the different pieces. We were playing with the idea in our country with Yoga alliance, we wanted to make it a 300 hour training. But in our country, if it's a 300 hour training, you technically have to take a 200 hour training first in order to teach. So instead we're doing a 200 hour training plus 100 hour CE training. So it's a total of 300 hours. And at first we were like, well, we could offer just the 100 CES for someone that's already a yoga teacher, but we don't want to do that because most so many yoga teachers trainings do not embody trauma and grief throughout the process. So we're going to discount it for people that are already yoga teachers. But our plan is to integrate it throughout the entire journey to ensure people have that lens.

Jo: Yeah. And one thing that I've really discovered with all of my trauma informed trainings is it helps you with particular populations, but it helps everyone. Like a lot of trauma informed training is just good teaching and it helps you off the mat as well because you just get a more expansive view of what every, everyone that you're meeting, what they might have going on that you don't know about and also your own Past things that you've had going on will shape how you see the world today and, you know, how you might respond to a situation different to someone else. And that just seems to really come back to the whole philosophy that's the heart of yoga anyway, like knowing ourselves and being compassionate with ourselves and being compassionate to the people that we meet. So I love the sound of this. It sounds amazing.

Amy: Yeah. And it's going to be virtual. The first part is going to be in person. But if we can get a corporate sponsor to help us pay for a videographer, that first five days will also go be virtual. So it can be accessible to all people. But right now, the first five days is in person and the rest of it is virtual. So that's. That's kind of where we are now. But our hope is to get a corporate sponsor to pay for that. And that's part of fundraising. Right. So. And I think the piece that's so important in Trauma and Grief Informed, with a Trauma and Grief Informed Lens, is really allowing people to feel a space of curiosity, to notice the sensations in their body, to choose to lean in or to choose to lean out. Right. And it's again that pendulating back and forth, sometimes we'll lean into speaking our truth and sharing our vulnerabilities, whether it's through movement or through voice. And sometimes we contract back because we're not quite ready. But it's the both that are part of the growing with grief. It's the both that are part of healing, not being healed, but healing.

Jo: And that just sounds applicable to so many aspects of life as well as the grief.

Amy: Yes, yes, beautiful.

Rane: Well, I guess we've got one more question and we ask it at the end of every conversation. So essentially, if you could distil everything that you teach and practise down to one core essence, what do you think that one thing would be?

Amy: That is a great question. I think it's not going to be one word. I can't make it one word. But what I can.

Rane: That's fine, that's fine.

Amy: Okay. What I can say is connection, inclusivity, somatic wisdom, integration, which leads to finding meaning and purpose.

Rane: Beautiful, beautiful.

Jo: That's a lovely summary and thank you so much for speaking with us today and thank you for everything that you do in the world. It's been so inspiring to talk to you and I wish you all the best with it. Sounds like you've got a lot of really big things coming up in the future and we'll definitely do what we can to tell people about them.

Rane: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for speaking with us today.

Amy: Thank you so much. Thank you for spreading light. I really it means a lot.

Rane: We really hope you enjoyed our conversation with Amy. We've put all of her links in our show notes, including the link to their fundraising event, which we'll also be contributing to on our website podcast.flowartist.com and again, a quick reminder that we'd love it if you could write us a quick review on Apple Podcast or leave us some stars on Spotify. This is a great way to help others find the podcast and show your support. We also love hearing from our listeners and finding out what you enjoy about the podcast. We also really appreciate it when you share our posts about each episode or leave us a comment online. You can find us at the Flow Artist Podcast Facebook page or look for Rane Loves Yoga or Garden of Yoga on Instagram. We're a DIY operation and your community support really helps. Special thanks goes out to our Patreon supporters. Your donations help us cover editing and hosting costs and we appreciate you so, so much. You can even join our Patreon for free now. To get the latest updates, just go to patreon.com flowartistpodcast our patreon members get lots of perks, including access to our online library at the Flow Artist Tier. We'd like to express our gratitude to GoSoul for granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out gosooul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express. He aroha nui maua kia koutou katoa

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