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Hello, my name is Rane Bowen and this is the flow artists podcast - every episode my co-host Jo Stewart and I speak with inspiring movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much much more.
I would like to start by honouring the traditional owners of the unceded land on which this episode was recorded, the Wurunderi people of the Kulin nation. Jo and I pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
We are extremely excited about our guest for today’s episode - Her name is Celeste Liddle, Celeste is a writer, a trade unionist, a proud Arrente femminist, and the Greens Candidate for the Cooper electorate, right here in Melbourne. She’s also responsible for one of my favourite twitter feeds as you’ll hear later on! As I’ve already mentioned, we were very keen to speak with Celeste and especially grateful that she spoke with us from her home in isolation
with Covid!
So, that’s more than enough from me - lets get into our conversation with Celeste Liddle

flowartists
Hello. So I'm Jo and this is Rane. Welcome to the Flow Artists Podcast. So we're here today with Celeste Liddle which we're really excited about and just before we get into things I'd just like to begin by acknowledging that we live and work and record this podcast on Wurundjeri land as part of the Kulin nation and we pay our respects to elders past present and emerging and it's a real honour today to have Celeste joining us as a powerful First Nations representative and. Yeah I guess I just pass it over to you Celeste. How are you going today?

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, not too bad, not too bad, um people are pretty aware online that I'm currently in Covid isolation that I'm coming out the other side of that. So yeah, getting there. Yeah.

Flowartists
Beautiful. So perhaps we could just start with you telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up.

Celeste Liddle
I yeah, yeah, so before I begin too I just wanted to acknowledge that I'm coming in from Wurundjeri country here in the beautiful Kulin nation and paying my respects to their elders past and present I'm an Arrernte a woman whose's traditional lands are Alice springs and then East and southeast are there. Um, and you know, um, that's Dads side of the family. Mum's side of the family is Clifton Hill - born Collingwood supporters. So yeah as ah as a traditional owner from elsewhere I just wanted to acknowledge that the Wurundjeri have never seated their sovereignty that a treaty or sovereign agreement is yet to be negotiated for use on these lands so as a traditional owner from elsewhere, I pledge my solidarity in their ongoing struggle for justice. I have lived um I've lived in this area, which is which is encompassed by the greater electorate of cooper if you like for the past 20 years but I was actually born in Canberra. We lived there till I was nearly fourteen years old and then we moved down to Melbourne and I I lived and went to and finished my high school in the outer southeastern beachside suburbs, before I ran screaming over the north over to the northern suburbs to to go to La Trobe uni and I've been in this area as I said pretty much ever since with the exception of a couple of years in the middle.

flowartists
Nice and um I understand when you did move to Melbourne you were one of the only Aboriginal kids in your school is that right? and um, yeah, how how was that?

Celeste Liddle
And that was really hard. That's right Rane, I was, I think apart from one term that I remember when I was in year when there were 2 other. Strangely um, there were 2 other Aboriginal kids in my in my class apart from that one term I was the only identifying Aboriginal student in the school. Um, ah, funnily enough I wasn't the only kid with Aboriginal heritage. I found that out later but I was the only one out there identifying and and part of that was because I, I guess I was visible, so I'm definitely not a white person and people could see that. And but also, I come from well, Canberra. Most people think of Canberra as a very sort of white collar privileged white place, with a bunch of educated lefties in it which is not untrue, but at the time that I was growing up there, there was a huge Aboriginal community that was associated both with the local mob there, the Ngunnawal and Gundungurra people. But also with things like the Tent Embassy and the public service. There are a lot of Aboriginal people working within ATSIC and other Aboriginal departments and so we had a lot of relations from Dad's side of the family that were also living in Canberra in the time and so it was kind of like I went from this community where I was frequently hanging around with a lot of Aboriginal people at given times, and there were support networks in the schools for Aboriginal kids to an environment in the outer southeastern beachside suburbs which was an incredibly monocultural area. Um, where there was no support network. So it was really isolating. It's really tough I did experience racism at school. But um, more um, it was the veiled sort of racism. So you know, um, yeah. Being being picked on weirdly because I was visible or outspoken in some way.
I kind of wish that though the the others who who did have heritage had been a little bit more out there because it probably wouldn't have been so isolating. Yeah, such an isolating experience but the benefit was that I ran over this side of town and found not just an incredible Indigenous community but an incredible multicultural Lefty Community that yeah, that has been my home since.

flowartists
Nice and I'm an avid follower of you on Twitter um, it's one of the highlights of my Twitter feed.I remember you posted recently about how you read out the poem. No more Boomerang in assembly one year...

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

flowartists
Yeah, coming from New Zealand ah I'd never heard of this poem before and it just blew me away actually!
Could you please talk about how that poem affected you?

Celeste Liddle
And yeah, yeah, I think of that incident and sometimes I think back to like, I have no idea to this day. How the teachers when I got up and wrote that in assembly, how they felt about me reading it out. Because it's a confronting poem. It's a confronting poem. It contains a lot of confronting language, you know. It was written by Oodgeroo Noonuccal. An incredible, Indigenous woman and poet.

flowartists
Oh.

Celeste Liddle
And an activist you know? Yeah, So like there's so many so many things. But the funny thing was that, I was this, I don't want to say massive loser when I was in year nine but I spent an awful lot of time in the school library during lunch, because you know I, I was feeling quite isolated at the time and I found the book of her poems in that library and I read them. That one in particular, you know, just kind of jumped out at me because. How strongly she spoke about the impacts of colonization. You know the whitewashing of culture, the being forced into um, forced into religion being made to feel ashamed of your body. Um, as part of the process of colonization. Um, yeah, and what she saw as the ultimate impact of all that which was the destruction of Humanity. Um, yeah, it really really hit home to me. But um.

flowartists
M.

Celeste Liddle
The assembly I read it out and I think I described this well, I don't think, I know I described this in my chapter that I wrote for Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia which was edited by Anita Heiss. The assembly was um, a multicultural assembly that one of the teachers had organized and essentially what they'd done for that assembly was get an Aboriginal football player to come off and speak, from from um North Melbourne I think he was um, one of the McAdam Brothers, Adrian sorry, and and myself and that was the assembly and so, so that's what I got up there and read. You know some kids in my school came up and said "that was really amazing" after I'd done that and it was this sort of moment. Like given that I've had such horrible time at that school prior to that it was kind of a turning moment because through Oodgeroo Noonuccal's words I kind of found my own words. So I learned how to stand up for myself more and more after that point. Yeah, so that was that was the impact it it. It reflected my experiences but her words also gave me a voice.

flowartists
You know that's amazing, I think for me as well. The um, just you know each verse is so concise and and kind of brutal and and it also sort of it talks about you know, having you a culture taken away from you and then kind of, I don't know a lesser version sold back to you. It's yeah yeah, it's amazing.

Celeste Liddle
And yeah, yeah, and you know, my grandmother was a stolen generations woman. Her story was in this exhibition which, you can find audio Files actually of her recording which was called Between Two Worlds and I think it came out in about 1994 and so you know that poem kind of really did speak to that experience because um, you know I hope.

Celeste Liddle
Her culture was forcibly removed from her in that experience and then my dad experienced the same thing being sent away to a convent school and so as a kid in white suburban Melbourne you know, isolated being. Experiencing racism due to my Aboriginality but not necessarily having the tools to defend it because of the processes of colonization. You do find that you grab onto various bits of bits and pieces of Aboriginality is what you're told they are and um, yeah. You know, finding your own voice later on. Um I think as an experience. Ah a lot of kids have grown up in that sort of situation can relate to yeah.

flowartists
And to flow on to something that I've actually taken from your blog 'about section' about writing and I'm going to quote you here if that's okay 'I find an honesty in writing and an ability to frame ideas much more clearly than if I was speaking them.'

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

flowartists
'Most of all there is the therapeutic value writing can be a way of communicating the hard stuff so that others can relate and it no longer eats away at you because you own it solely' and that to me just was such a powerful expression of the writing process for you, of making sense of your own in a world and also inviting other people in to your perspective and taking it from an individual burden to like here's a shared thing that we can all work on. But a lot of what you write about.. It's really important and like really emotionally loaded topics like racism, we've been talking about. Is it re-traumatizing to see your carefully chosen words like out in the world and sometimes being deliberately misunderstood.

Celeste Liddle
And it's a really um, funny thing because because um I've got a bad habit Jo, of not revisiting stuff that I've written...

13:21.99
flowartists
Ah, oh maybe that's like self-care.

Celeste Liddle
And you know, not to watch. There's people, people have referred to, I was on Q and A one time and I've been on Tv a few times and I've never watched myself on television and so they'd be talking to me about that and I go - 'Yeah I think I said that' but I've never watched it to verify. Um, yeah, sometimes it can be like that and unfortunately. But where do I want to start with this? Writing the blog gave me an opportunity to write stuff in my own words in my own space.
Um and written forms of communication because I had ear troubles as a kid, that didn't get properly diagnosed until I was about 7 um written forms of communication have long been my more natural way of communicating. So, so writing things down and ordering my thoughts in certain ways came most naturally in the written form. Being able to put them out there on the blog gave me an opportunity to take space and communicate back to people. The thing with my blog was that it started up as an anti-media space. So people often are. I tell this story because I started it because there were so few other Aboriginal voices in the mainstream media and the ones that were in the mainstream media at the time I started the blog, which was 2012 I want to say, were carefully curated. They were often people who would reinforce the views of the mainstream media and what they wanted to put across like about Aboriginal people rather than us speaking for ourselves or radical left perspectives of Indigenous people being portrayed, which is where I come from.
You know, um, but I started writing and then within six weeks of starting the blog. All of a sudden I was contacted by an editor from fairfax wanting to publish my work. And so my anti-media space weirdly became a media space and I became a media figure in some way shape or form um to the point where I've now had numerous columns and I've written for so many different publications...

Celeste Liddle
And um, what I've really enjoyed is is where I've been in supportive media environments where they've allowed me to just talk about topics and take apart big issues impacting our communities from the way I see and put together the arguments, you know. I've heard from the communities or that I've done research on. Um, what I've really loathed and what has happened with some editors is that they kind of expect you to open up a vein and bleed all over the page for them. Um, you know, there's a sense we can't um, convey an opinion without um, it as far as I concerned without it. You know, um, us relating it to our own experiences and it's traumatizing enough a lot of the time to write about things that Aboriginal people are going through in this society without also having to make it relate to your own experiences in order for non-indigenous people to see it as being a valid view. Yeah, so.

flowartists
And it's actually really insulting that you can't just be a professional journalist and write about an issue without having to like you say like bleed into the article, like white men don't have that kind of burden based upon them when they write about different issues. Even if it does...

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah.

flowartists
Relate to them personally.

Celeste Liddle
So yeah, yeah, and it's such a double-edged sword if you do too. So if you if you do bleed all over the page for the editors as I said, you're often seen as being biased, you know, um. Towards indigenous people - you're you're creating a bias view but that Bias isn't seen with the writings of white men. They're seen as neutral and as, authoritative in a way that we're not unless we're talking about our own relationship. To some sort of thing. Um, yeah, but white men are not neutral and we know that you know they they very much Um, ah ah the dominant sort of narrative that we see everywhere. Yeah, and.

flowartists
And so you've kind of spoken about your writing process like it's really considered. It's really internal and you have time and space to put your thoughts together have you had to kind of change brain gears moving from, you know a quiet writing space to a debate or like a live media interview or have you spent so long thinking about these issues that the words all just flow pretty freely now.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah yeah, I'm pretty good at having you know, being able to convey the words and the views concisely 1 thing that writing has taught me so um, often. When I do write an article what actually makes it um in front of you sorry for those home I'm doing the hand signals um is is um, say 6 to 800 words which is the average size of an opinion piece.

Celeste Liddle
Usually I'll write about 2000 and then hack the crap out of it so that it is concise and all of that. Um, yeah, you end up becoming a very good editor of words through that process and I've really found that that's helped too. Concisely shape the way that I speak as well when it comes to issues so I can hit key topics rather rather concisely and rather pointedly so that well in, in the hope, rather that people are able to then just pick them up and go um, there's always you can avoid it. There is always someone out there who will try and twist your words or use them back against you? Um, yeah, it's really unavoidable. Um. There's Facebook pages that exist purely for that purpose actually but particularly when it comes to green's commentators for something like that. Um, but yeah, you know, generally speaking. It has helped um the development of writing skills has helped.

Celeste Liddle
My verbal communication skills when it comes to interview formats and all of that sort of stuff.

flowartists
And so we've kind of just been speaking about how writing is, just been such an important part of your self-expression and also other people's writing such an important support. And just seeing the way that the arts and music are just totally not supported through Covid by our current government and aren't getting a lot of support in their upcoming budget either. It's really disturbing because this is our humanity and this is how we deal with the world.

Celeste Liddle
So.

flowartists
And I know that you really value Australia's cultural ecosystem and the role that the arts can play like in our collective healing. How are the greens planning to support the arts in the future?

Celeste Liddle
And well definitely through more arts funding like you know we've continually seen cut starts funding when this is what we should be bolstering you know, um it it just it just.

flowartists
I.

Celeste Liddle
Um, particularly in Cooper where we have so many amazing musos, writers, painters everything else. Um, if they weren't able to exhibit. They weren't able to do gigs they weren't able to launch albums. They weren't able to put on plays. You know they weren't able to make a living during covid and they weren't able to bolster their income through hospitality jobs either, thus so, you know through not only funding the arts but strengthening social safety nets as well. So that people you know when when these things happen people are actually able to live to keep creating to have you know other spaces that they can continue working in so that they can continue creating. More of the incredible stuff that we do see in this as you said arts ecosystem. It's um, yeah, the arts definitely need significantly more funding I think that, I think that despite the fact that Australian artists frequently punch above our weight when it comes to the global perspective. Um that they're so undervalued. A lot of people end up making their livings overseas and that shouldn't be the case. Um we need to be trying to keep our music spaces open and art spaces open and keep people supported so that they can keep creating things.

flowartists
And I mean we all needed it so much when we were in lockdown. It's like that's what keeps you sane.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah, and you know that it's the the opportunity to just plug, like I saw a lot of um, a lot of people. Engaged with the arts Really struggling with mental health issues. Well you know and not engaged in the arts but definitely ones engaged with the arts struggling with mental health issues because they weren't able to create. They weren't able to put stuff out there. They weren't able to engage with their audiences and. You know so much of arts is also audience feedback or that buy-in or you know, Arts is always two ways. It's the people who create it and then the people who interact with it that make it. So yeah, when you take those things Away. Um. The impacts of that mentally are just extraordinary. Yeah, and.

flowartists
And we're in this kind of weird place right now where like Covid absolutely still is an issue as I'm sure you are aware of but like how government's just kind of pretending that it isn't, like moving forward what changes would you like to see as we quotation marks 'live with this virus'. And if there's a future pandemic like what would you like to see done differently?

Celeste Liddle
Oh okay, um, there's so much that I would like to see done differently and I feel like that's where I want to start.
So you know I... During our second wave of covid in Melbourne one of the things that we saw that was utterly devastating was this virus just run rampage through the aged care sector and we lost so many elderly people. To this virus so many people lost their parents and their grandparents who are living in aged care um to this ah to this virus. Um, and you know and and that was like there was so many. Reasons why that one why that was one was that aged care has been privatized and outsourced. So so um, the the looking after the elderly the people who've who've given you know their entire lives building up society, bringing up families, paying their taxes. Whatever else given their lives and should be able to just have a nice leisurely retirement and um, seeing out the seeing out their twilight years having the best time ever, have become a for profit entity. Which is just extraordinary. You know? So I'd love to see aged care become publicly funded you know and a public entity again I think everyone is who, who is lucky enough to reach a nice Elderly age has the right to be taken care of in that in that age you know, has the right to live the best life that they ever can as they see out their years. You know, um, and and should you know should be able to do so on a decent pension with all supports in place. One of the biggest reasons why it flowed through the aged care sector was that, a good portion of the aged care sector is being staffed by casually employed aged care workers some of whom, you know, weren't making enough money on one job so they were working between several aged care homes in order to just put food on the table, you know.

Celeste Liddle
We need to see a severe reduction in casual contracts. You know, short-term fix and contracts and we need to see a lot more stable employment with a lot better conditions such as sick leave, annual leave, you know all the sorts of leave. Support workers in place. So that people can work one job can bring home a decent income and you know aren't spreading aren't spreading viruses between vulnerable groups. I think the other thing that I saw, was glaring was um, a massive massive hole in the in the public health sector. So you know where there should have been a significant amount of more funding in Healthcare Public Health Care . It wasn't and instead of instead of focusing on bolstering public health at a time when it was needed, we saw a lot more policing measures come into play. We saw our our public quarantining system being run in private hotels, and run and being overseen by private security guards some of whom had been you know, hired again on incredibly precarious contracts. So they were spread between workplaces in order to make a living. So if there were things that I would like to see come out of the pandemic. It would be a brilliant social safety net, increased all pensions, you know, better work security for all, a much a much better funded public health system and definitely a lot more public aged care, going on. Yeah. They're things that just jump out of me straight away.

flowartists
It seems like as well, you see stories from Europe about aged care being a lot less institutional and a lot more about creating community and I don't think that model really goes with the For-profit private company because companies are for-profit. So They're not necessarily going to invest in things that aren't a financial return but are an emotional return for the people and their families living there and for the whole of society to kind of benefit from the wisdom of the older people rather than them just kind of being.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

flowartists
Institutionalized I guess.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah, you know, and we and we see some people taking some independent action too. You know because because the aged care system has become so For-profit. I'm hearing more stories of like elderly women 4 of them buying a house together and just choosing to live together. Um, you know in their own community. Um I think that if people don't want to go into institutionalized sort of settings for for their twilight years. People should be supported to stay at home for as long as possible as well, like the elderly earned that right, they've earned the right to be supported in their old age.

flowartists
and another thing that um, I've seen you write about quite a lot which was how the Andrew's government um, focused on putting a lot of money into a giant prison rather than community support and healthcare and also just public housing for people who don't have a home right now. Um, would you like to talk a little bit about that and maybe also explain the difference between social housing and public housing because I'm not sure if that's clear for everyone.

Celeste Liddle
And yeah, for me the difference between social housing and public housing is that public housing is owned by the government is administered by the government and the government is therefore responsible for things like maintenance repairs. Um, you know the the rent is is decided at a certain amount of people's income and that and is fixed social housing is kind of like outsourced public housing. So the government then will outsource the the maintenance, the rent collecting and all of that to not-for-profit organizations or sometimes for-profit organizations in order to maintain properties. So social housing is the sorts of housing that you know maybe maybe a religious organization might take care of or, I don't know and any number of other sorts of organizations.
My thing is that we need more public housing full stop. Um, and people do need to become a little bit more aware of the differences because social housing is used an awful, an awful lot by the government. Um. When they're talking about building more places for people to live. But what they're actually proposing is is housing that they're then going to outsource to other organizations in order to administer and you know who who controls the quality of how those places are then administered from that point or, what sort of ethics comes in? Like if it's a religious organization and that religious organization for example, opposes the rights of gay and lesbian people to just be. And won't house them then, then where's the responsibility for them to house?
You know those sorts of complications come in when public housing is outsourced so public housing is what we need, and what we need an awful lot more of it. With regards to the Andrews government and what I saw so yeah, definitely a lot, there was a lot of money put into building a lot more prisons and a lot more prison places during covid. In fact, Andrews

Celeste Liddle
in 2020 announced that, part of the covid recovery scheme was going to be the hiring of 300 new corrections officers. Um and I was just gobsmacked by that but it was interesting to see. Prisons being built and and corrections being reinforced. Um and you know running alongside what was things like, fines for not wearing a mask or for protesting, even when it was covid safe. Say for like those um protesters at the mantra who are in cars and still copped fines. Um, yeah, um, you know finding the the fines for non-compliance. I remember reading the statistics on that non-compliance with the Andrews government's covid directives it, it was found that um that african australians and aboriginal people were were incredibly overrepresented represented in the finding data. So they've been you know people who are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and people of color were disproportionately being fined for not adhering to covid directives. I did get into some arguments at the time because we had measures, like I'm a collectivist I was definitely all for staying at home in order to protect the vulnerable in our society but where a rule didn't make sense...

flowartists
And.

Celeste Liddle
So say the curfew or spending time outdoors like we're all spending time indoors. But um, the the rates of covid transmission outdoors are significantly lower so we should have been spending more time outdoors than what we were indoors. Anyway and doing doing so as much as possible. Um, yeah, where those rules didn't make sense I started to question them. Um, and there was a lot of backlash. It's kind of I, I also think too. Um. Sorry I am going off on a tangent to your question here Jo but the other thing, one of the other things I noticed I brought up the protesters the refugee rights protesters at the mantra hotel. Um, the black lives matter rally organizers. Also. Fines organising that rally. But um, one of the interesting things of that rally which I've said many times was um, there was the mask mandate going on at that time but due to the Andrews government. It was also ah it had also been made illegal to wear masks at rallies two years earlier so we're breaking the law a while adhering to the law is that one? Um, but the but the final thing was like, not that I support the freedom marches or the anti-vaxer movement. But when I started seeing police being armed to the hilt with assault weaponry turning up to protests as someone who spends an awful lot of time at Indigenous rights protest union protests, refugee rights protests, seeing people turning up with assault weapons firing pepper pellets into the crowd I had ah I had a real concern for the future protests in this state and what that might mean for us what we might be up against from a civil rights perspective. Following covid so I think we need to keep an eye on that. Yeah, and.

flowartists
Yeah, seems like some stealthy stuff that kind of got sneaked in while everyone was understandably preoccupied with a global pandemic and so like with so much happening within Australia within your own electorate and globally how do you just...

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

flowartists
Decide like where to direct your energy and focus just to avoid getting burned out and overwhelmed, and so you still can have a focus?

Celeste Liddle
Oh this is such a great question to be asked by flow energy because I'm not sure I get the flows right? But I'm never sure I get the flows right? like um, you know.

flowartists
And.

Celeste Liddle
Burnout is a reality and it is a reality of my life frequently. Um, and it is something that I definitely need to learn how to manage better. Um, because because you know there's always something going on in the Indigenous rights movement I'm also a union organizer, I'm also a community activist in other spaces and now for some strange reason I thought being a political candidate would be a good idea as well. So, you know that I think that um trying to trying to go through what's going on in your head and and trying to pick and choose what's important at any given time is incredibly difficult. Um, the only thing that I'd really say is never ever lose sight of the things that also make you happy that make you feel alive. So so I frequently. Um. Actually I don't think there's many photos of me out on the campaign trail at the moment without wearing some sort of gig t-shirt or hoodie that has come from some sort of some sort of live music thing. Um me going to live music is something that I love. And enjoy and it makes me. You know it makes me feel alive. Um for a lot of people getting out there and exercising is their thing you know meditating, my brother is a huge meditator um likes to just shut down for for 10 minutes here half an hour there and just center, in you know in order to to quiet the brain um to think on something else. Yeah um, giving yourself the space to think, something us to just sit back and enjoy and. Um, yeah, spell the roses as they say um, stop and spell the roses yeah is is so important learning learning when to do that and kind of being active in pursuing those opportunities to do so because if you don't. Do that then things can pile up. That's the nature of being being someone who cares about social justice. Um.

flowartists
It seems like your dog is pretty helpful as well.

Celeste Liddle
Ah, she's a lovely little girl. You know she? Um, yeah, she's she's been a blessing in our lives. So I got um Stella from the lost dogs home about six months ago um and and she's a bit of a character. She's a bit of a character. Um, she she looked at she walked over to a lead before and looked up at it, and I go 'oh no mate I can't sorry but we've got a friend coming to walk you soon.'

flowartists
Ha ha no. No, um and it seems you've recently gotten a bit of flak from white feminists for challenging a progressive female candidate like how do you say? is it Ged Kearney or Ged?

Celeste Liddle
And.

flowartists
Kearney when you've lived in this area for 20 years or so um and we note that Kath Larkin the Victorian Socialist candidate hasn't really received the same amount of backlash. So what do you think is going on there. Ah.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, her so much so much so say Ged Kearney is um is yeah, an amazing. You know, an amazing woman who has come from the union movement as well. She was the ac to president was the was with the anmf, sorry stop with the acronyms, Australian nurses and midwives federations the years before that. Um, and and you know. Is from labor left and um and was there was labor's pick to be the candidate in this seat because this seat was nearly lost to the greens back in 2016 when then candidate Alex Patel won the primary vote and the the sitting member David Feeney, um yeah only held onto it due to where the liberal preferences went. So when I was pre-selected to answer that, um I was really disappointed by the reaction that I saw and I'm going to be pretty blunt here I've got to say, because some of the reaction that I saw a lot of the reaction that I saw that was really negative that you know you definitely saw me share on Twitter and but a lot of it came from union women union women who are labor affiliated and in fact.

flowartists
Yeah.

Celeste Liddle
One of the people who who had the biggest go at me that was incredibly disgusting and she gaslight me and all of that stuff was a former Ceo of Emily's List which is an organization that exists to assist women within the Labor Party who are looking to to move into politics. So an organisation built to assist women to get into politics, never mind that they're Labor she she felt that she had the right to come in question my right to stand. Um. You know, a lot of the other women that had a go ar me were also women that I know from the labor movement or you know were were like feminists. Um, but yeah, the the were you know that felt affronted. I would dare stand against Kearney um, and indeed you know it was everything from 'you should stand against a white liberal guy' to 'you should run for the senate' like telling an Aboriginal woman that she should go elsewhere to run when this is the community that I've sat in.

flowartists
Excuse me.

Celeste Liddle
I mean sorry I've lived in for over twenty years and we haven't had a sitting member in this seat who has actually lived in their electorate for I think nearly thirty years, so you know telling someone who lives in the electorate and has done for a long time, that they should go elsewhere was just extraordinary. But yeah, yeah, the the fact that um so many of them came from the labour movement so many of them came from organisations where they support other women to get into parliament. It was really disappointing. Um, what was also really disappointing with that dialogue was that um was the idea or disappointing and also offensive was the idea that people in this seat for some strange reason because we've got. We've got a labor candidate who who is on the left and is an actual good woman. Um, that people in this electorate somehow deserve less of a democratic choice when they're going to the the ballot box. Um. I think I've said this too many times now but this is the most progressive voting seat in the country over eighty percent of people who live in this seat cast a vote for a progressive candidate as a number 1 choice. So the fight here is not between labor and liberal like it is in other seats that get a democratic choice. It's kind of the best progressive for the job. Um, and that's the way it should be so denying the voters in this seat the right to choose who the best progressive candidate is to represent them on the floor of parliament. Um, just because just because there's a labor woman who's already sitting in the seat to me is extraordinary, like why are people here deserved less of a choice than anyone else in this country?

flowartists
It seems kind of weird as well, like because you come from a union background people kind of feel like you owe labor this debt of loyalty but they actually voted against a lot of issues that are really important to you like the age of incarceration and fossil fuel and like they don't.

Celeste Liddle
I.

flowartists
And align with your policies and it just seems to be this assumption that oh you'll just go work for labor.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah, and you know, um, things like their refugee rights and continuing the Northern Territory intervention and you know people have known for a long time I'm not a labor person. You know there's a lot of people in the Union movement who even though the labor party came out of the labor movement, think that it no longer represents their values and they've got a lot of reason to. I think we're at the point now where if we don't get more progressive voices in the house of representatives. Um. The senate. The senate does a bit of check and balance up in you know in their chamber. But if we don't get more progressive voices in the house of representatives then the the labor party is just going to continue being dragged more and more to the right and when you've got the shadow treasurer talking about how they're going to be the party for business or you've got Albanesy talking about how anyone who tries to come here by boat is going to be turned away I mean I. We need people on the ground who have the space to challenge that and unfortunately no matter how progressive a local labor MP might be at the end of the day they go into a party room and they are bound by the decision of the party room. So. Even when they don't believe something personally they have to vote along the party line or risk expulsion from the party. So unless we get more cross benchers we not going to get more democracy in that house.

flowartists
Um, I just wanted to pitch real quick. My um idea for a campaign slogan for you which is 'Ged out' yeah a bit of silliness.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, yeah, but. Oh it was good to you today. I'm no good at ah, we haven't come up with a good 3 words like and for me yet. But you know.

flowartists
What what can politics. Ah.

flowartists
Ah I think the other thing with um labor is. It's just become so abundantly clear that we need to take climate action like right now like yesterday and so many it just seems like so much of labor's funding actually comes from fossil fuels and from mining and. We're kind of getting close to the end of the time and this is like a really big topic but I think for a lot of people. The greens are kind of the hope that we have for our environment would you like to just take us through some of the policies that are actually going to like bring the change that we need.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

Celeste Liddle
And can I bore you with my like, you know I have a masters in in communications and media studies, to look here a bit because when I was a kid in the 80 s going through the primary school system. I remember learning about chlorofluorocarbons and the greenhouse effects and how we had to take action now and that was what we were being taught as kids in the eightys and then something changed. You know throughout the 90 s that message got more and more muddied. Um. And then two thousands onwards um and no matter how many scientific papers were peer reviewed research. You know how many projects were going on how many ice caps started to shrink in size. No matter how much this was happening, and it was being documented and it was being released. Those reports weren't being picked up by the media and weren't being acted on by parliament and that is because the fossil fuel lobby is extraordinarily wealthy and had the ability to squash the messages. So politicians who were reliant on fossil fuel donations. Were not going to take action on climate change because there goes a big chunk of their donations. The news media that again, you know there's so many figures from from the mining world, from the fossil fuel industry that have been a major stakeholders in papers or that have good relationships. Like you know a Murdock domination and his relationship with other wealthy people including mining magnates, again were not going to report truthfully on on the impacts of climate change and environmental destruction and what that means for our future. Um. In that environment. Um, yeah, like it it when I think about that and put that all together. That's the 30 year period of negative you know, um, retrograde information going on just trying, just muddying up the public perception. So people are I think really aware now through through the actions of you know things like the school strike or or even.

Celeste Liddle
Papers like Guardian saying no, we're not going to report untruthfully on climate changes and emergency anymore. People are becoming more aware. Um I think that people in this seat have always been pretty aware that there's an emergency that needs to be dealt with and have been environmentally. For a long time, so the sorts of policies within the greens that really inspired me were hearing stuff like so a pledge to to not just aim for 100 % renewable but 700 % renewable there is no excuse why a country with a climate like Australia that is so abundant in renewable energy, like as sunlight and our wind power here, cannot be building. You know, investing in research and technology building and then exporting that to the rest of the world to ensure that the rest of the world becomes more renewable as well.
Land rejuvenation programs, you know as a traditional owner of central Australia, I've seen some of the benefits can happen through land rejuvenation. You know I've got family members who live in in Indigenous protected areas and have been getting rid of things like Buffalo grass which has been choking up waterways in the territory. You know, and removing things like feral cats so that you see the rejuvenation of the bilby population within those areas.
You know it's not too late to take these actions and take these actions too. With with the knowledges with the incredibly established ancient knowledges that have taken care of this land for for Millennia, informing it in order to ensure that there is a better future for tomorrow.
Yeah, we we can't do this without being honest about what it is which is that we need to take action and it needs to be decisive action now we need to be getting towards zero new emissions by 2030 and we need to be ensuring that we are continuing to develop those technologies and that research so that we do become rather than the world embarrassment on climate change. One of the world leaders.

flowartists
Absolutely and um, you know like was it Lismore um, having 2 was it 1 in hundred year floods in the last month and um, you know Antarctica was it um 20° above average I mean this this stuff's terrifying. It's happening right now as.

Celeste Liddle
Yes, yes yeah I.

flowartists
Um, my gosh anyway and I think like Lismore is actually a really awesome example of Indigenous led community care because it seemed like the Koori mail newspaper just stepped in became this meeting place and

Celeste Liddle
So yeah, yeah.

flowartists
place to distribute things to the community and get food to remote communities and organize people who could fly Helicopters to do that when the government just did nothing which is kind of like super heartbreaking.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

flowartists
But also super inspiring to see what a local community can do when faced with that kind of disaster.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah, it was extraordinary wasn't it, because we do have a governmental disaster relief fund and yet where was it going?
And that was established in the wake of the bushfires and where did it go?
Then you know like massive bushfires followed by floods. Then with a lovely big pandemic in the middle of ah like people who are really struggling at this time. But yeah, seeing that action out of Lismore and seeing you know seeing people plug in but also seeing at the same time was that Peter Dutton started to go fund me to try and copy that and I'm just sort of mate you're in government?
Why don't you release some of the funding?
Why don't you help these communities that are crying out for help?
We've got yeah one thing that I do worry about an awful lot right now, you know in the last couple of years we have seen the first waves of climate refugees happening, so people from Pacific Islands moving into you know, moving into out, are coming here because their homelands are becoming more and more underwater these little islands are sinking below below sea level and people are having to leave their homes um due to the rising sea levels. Um, we're going to see more of that as you know if there is if if there's not action and decisive strong action. Um. As and um, as a matter of urgency. Yeah.

flowartists
Um, she um' um, a bit aware of how much time we we have left with you but I did I did really want to ask you about I felt um, Adam Bant and his 'Google it mate' was just brilliant. It was absolutely fantastic and the way he sort of um. You know from there just sort of segwayed into all the things he really wanted to say I I know I just saw it was fantastic. Would you like to comment on that?

Celeste Liddle
yeah yeah I am well yeah, as as you saw I immediately copied it on social media. Someone said what does Arrernte mean and I just turned around Google it made. Um, you know it's.

flowartists
Ah, he um.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah I really feel. Um, when it comes to the tabloid press and their ongoing need for gotcha moments trying to try to make out that Politicians, leaders of parties, and all that to be to the fools by by hitting them with something that they're not just going to be able to rip off the top of their head. Um I kind of thought that Albanese's approach to a similar gotcha sort the moment that person was trying to you know, hit him with a gotcha. What's the current percentage of this um told me ah on the spot and he said no I'm not going to do that with that 'Google it' mate. I'm going to talk about this which is our actual policy and we should be talking about policies and ideas in the lead up to the election and the way that he focused that was was brilliant. I just wish that, Um, I really feel you know, particularly as not as ah, not as someone who's running as a politician but as a member of the public I know that a lot of people are really uninspired right now we've gone through a rough couple of years we're trying to rebuild lives.

Celeste Liddle
And we're really uninspired by the political political situation right now. So What we really do want to hear from Politicians isn't what gaffes they get wrong here and there it's what vision they actually have for the Future. You know, how they're going to support those who are the most vulnerable in our societies. How they're going to help communities that are rebuilding after natural disasters or any other manner of things that are gone on. People want to be inspired by the politicians. So giving people the opportunity to actually hear the policies and engage with them, and go hey hang on. They've got something I like, you know that they're saying, so they're they're who I'm going with.. That's what we want So imagine if imagine if people could walk to the polls feeling inspired by their vote instead of grumbling all the way like we usually do go the mandatory voting in this country wiser. The thing you know it'd be such a change.

flowartists
I've kind of loved seeing the memes that are meant to be sarcastic about the greens policies and they're like free education Medicare and um mental health care covered by the government, Legal cannabis.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah.

flowartists
Environmental change like they're making out. It's like Ha Ha What a bag of laughs and it's like who has a problem with any of that? Like these are excellent policies that we all need!

Celeste Liddle
Um, yeah, my my favorite is always the the legal cannabis one because you can always get plenty of laughs out of that I retweeted that I mean so I reshared that one on my Instagram the other day with old 'pass the dutchy' um is my soundtrack for it. You know you can have so much fun with it. But yeah, trying to make out that these are stupid ideas when really um, a lot of the population would like to see a more more robust healthcare system um free education and. Um, ah you know and a number of other more humane policies. They are.

flowartists
Yeah, it's like how are these things are a joke. This is what I actually want. Yeah yeah, yeah people I don't know people just seem to be said like things can't be good. So yeah, yeah I don't know anyway. Um, so maybe I should.

Celeste Liddle
And.

flowartists
Get to our last question because yeah I'm aware that you're probably not feeling the best today and we are so um, yeah, we super appreciate your time. Yeah yeah, but I guess um, our last question is that if you could distill everything that.

Celeste Liddle
It's my pleasure.

flowartists
You've learnt in your life and everything that you teach and share down to one core essence. What do you think that 1 thing would be? That's my gotcha question.

Celeste Liddle
Yeah I yeah yeah, um, and I I'm very much coming from this as from the perspective of an Indigenous woman who has lived, you know through through the white capitalist patriarchy her entire life in this country um trying to decolonize myself trying to decolonize the rest of the world. Um, you know i. I often. Um I often. Oh come on. Yeah, you can tell I'm having trouble with the words right now? Um, yeah I think it would be that the one thing that um, that I definitely learnt from my nana. My dad's one.

Celeste Liddle
Um, who was a stolen generation woman and illiterate stolen generation woman who, went out there with the and stopped the damning of the waterway up in Alice back you know in in the 90 s. She was busted on, I think it was some news report, calling a local politician a bloody dingo um is that you know if you can stand up and and and and say you know make a stand. Um. If you believe in something make us stand and say it out and don't be ashamed to, because um, they are so, as an Aboriginal and there are so many people who have tried to make me feel ashamed of of who I am in this society. And had I have listened to them. Um, you know had I have um had I have let that form my life that I wouldn't be out there writing. I wouldn't be out there talking I wouldn't be out there on invasion day with a megaphone yelling for land rights and I certainly wouldn't be running for for politics right now. Um. Yeah there's so many people who will try and shut you down and just continue to try and have you say but also whilst having you say make sure that um make sure that you're you know you're doing it to benefit others, always think beyond yourself. Always think you know our interconnectedness is the most important thing we are all connected in some way shape or form so try and do it to bolster other people. Yeah.

flowartists
Beautiful. Yeah, thank you so much for that like you would just be making your Nana so proud and I've got to say as well like you and the greens are giving me so much hope and inspiration for the future when we've kind of come from some pretty dark times and I'm sure there's challenges ahead. So.

Celeste Liddle
And.

flowartists
Thank you so much for everything that you do.

Celeste Liddle
It's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Celeste - we would have loved to have spoken with her for at least another hour, but I’m glad we got the chance to speak with her. As I mentioned in the interview - I really loved the poem - No more boomerang - we’ll include a link in our show notes on our website podcast.flowartists.com. You can also leave a comment there if you like - we would love to hear from you!
For our next episode we are speaking with Nina Zolotow. Nina is an author and yoga teacher - she was behind the Yoga for healthy ageing blog and book and she spoke with us ahead of her next book coming out - “Yoga for times of change”. It’s a wonderful book and Nina has been an influence on my own experience as a yoga teacher, so look out for that one soon!
Our theme song is Baby Robots by ghostsoul and is used with permission - check out ghostsoul.bandcamp.com.
Thanks so much for listening - we really appreciate you spending your precious time with us - He arohanui maua ki a koutou katoa - Big Big love!