Donna Noble - Teaching Body Positive Yoga

Episode 118

54 mins

Donna Noble - Teaching Body Positive Yoga

July 31, 2022

In this episode we speak with UK based yoga teacher, writer, coach and body positive advocate Donna Noble. This is the second time we’ve spoken with Donna for the podcast, and that’s because she is doing some really amazing work!

Donna has just written a new book called “Teaching body positive yoga” which is a wonderful resource for all teachers. Whether you label your classes as body positive or not, this book is recommended reading for all teachers who want the skills and resources to facilitate a positive class experience for everyone.

The tone is welcoming and informative, Donna Noble keeps it real and kind as she shares about how size, race, body image, trauma can impact someone’s experience in class, and how we can support individual needs as teachers.

This is vital information for yoga teachers today, yet is sadly lacking from many teacher trainings. Teaching Body Positive Yoga introduces these topics providing a foundation of knowledge as well links to further educational resources from a diverse range of experts. It really is a fantastic resource for new and established teachers, and we were so excited to talk to Donna about the writing process

Links:
Donna's Website: https://thenobleartofyoga.co.uk/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/donnanobleyoga/
Donna's Books: https://thenobleartofyoga.co.uk/shop/shop-2/

Use the code MAKFLOW to receive a 10% discount at https://makarlu.com!


Transcription

Please email us to report any transcription errors

Flowartists
All right. Well, Donna Noble it's so good to get the chance to speak with you again. Our last conversation as we were just talking about before was in 2019 and so much has changed since then, so I was just wondering if you could catch us up on how things have changed for you and how you doing today?

Donna
Well thank you both for having me and yeah, so it's been a while and and lot has changed the world and and what I've been doing but since the last time I spoke I've still been doing the essentially Body Positivity work. But um, like most people my a lot of the work I've done has transitioned online and I find that I'm actually talking about more and teaching teachers now about diversity and inclusion. But also I have written a book um called Teaching Body Positive Yoga. So It's something that was totally unexpected but something that I'm here to talk to you about this morning. But yeah, very much online and loving online I didn't realize how much I would, but it's meant that I'd been able to reach a ah wider audience and teach to people all around the world and connect with different people. So It's that's been wonderful but also slowly but surely now I'm starting to teach in-person classes because I found that's something that I'm very much missing the you know the the energy that you get with teaching with with with my community.

flowartists
Yeah, and I feel like online is great If you have a calm quiet house and a good internet connection. But if you don't have those things people are just really craving being able to get back in the studio and have that experience.

Donna
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think what showed me as well is that I used to teach a lot around London so I think I was out and about and that was that was my world but with the lockdown I began to see that I enjoy my company a lot more. And being at home a lot more I've become a lot more homely something that I don't think I'd have see if we continued in in the same way. So so getting back out was not the struggle because of fear. But it's like, I'd liked been at home. You know I love the fact that I can just switch on zoom teach the class and then finish and I can you know be washing the dishes or wherever straight after as opposed to traveling. You know to get back home, having that commute.

flowartists
And so to move into your book Teaching Body Positive Yoga just reading it. It's obviously such a labor of love and it really seemed like accumulation of a lot of lessons learned in your training and in your teaching and in your own practice. Would you like to tell us what inspired you to start writing it?

Donna
Um, well Jo, ah writing the book wasn't um, my um, my list of goals. It was a friend of mine that written a book Lindy Porter and I think my publishers were looking for potential writers so they reached out to said, "do you know anyone that may have something interesting to write about". And straight away. She'd mentioned "Donna Noble about body positive yoga" and I didn't take it seriously in the beginning I thought yeah this is going to come to nothing type thing so we had the conversation she the e sort of introduction and then I was going to a conference. And so was the the editor and so we could meet there so we met and she said "well would you? What would you would you think you had to offer in writing a book?" so I outlined basically what I um what I thought I could I could um, share and said "yeah I think we could work on that" and I still didn't believe I thought if she's just you just play lip service to me type thing. So I went away and sat on it for a while I said what I think you should do is pitch your idea so I went away and I just one day sat on it for weeks and I said okay I have to do this I just wrote that anything in terms of what I thought would be valuable in order to to write about. And they came back and said "yeah I love it!". A few tweaks and these are chapters that outline and I got the contract so it was like so it was meant to be but it wasn't something that I had considered all was part of what I thought I would do on during this yoga journey that of mine.

flowartists
And so did the timing line up with the lockdowns as well I was wondering if you started writing a book when you were just at home all alone and you weren't teaching your regular classes.

Donna
Yeah I did Jo. I think I got the contract just before lockdown ensued and then I think they kept chasing me that gonna when is gonna happen I think I wrote chapter one the year lockdown actually started but I sat on it because they're obviously dealing with the lockdown and and and everything else and trying to transition online. I sat and I still don't think I believe that this book was real and I think it was like last year that I thought I can have to really sit down now and really go on but I've been give to this opportunity. You know you have something to share. You're trying to get Body Positivity out there. What a wonderful way to do it of than in the book you there's only one of me I can't you know. On my own and the book's an excellent way to do that. So I think then I began to realize the the gift that I had there to to share the knowledge that I I had acquired and my experiences along the way.

flowartists
I think so many people are going to appreciate this book like I'm just thinking back to my own teacher training and it was really thorough, like it was a two year course and it was over 1000 hours and like that was back in 2005 so I think like it did give me kind of a good grounding about generally making people comfortable in class and using language that's not going to anyone feel bad about themselves. But there was really not... like trauma informed language wasn't covered, non-gendered language wasn't really covered and even just different sizes and race. Really speaking with anyone who might not have had your own life experience wasn't really articulated in the way that you break it down in your book, was this your thought when you were writing it to help teachers kind of get up to speed with their knowledge and how they present it since. Ah, like our world has changed and I think still some teacher trainings haven't caught up.

Donna
I totally agree with you Jo, a lot of what you said resonates with me about your training. Mine was similar because often when I was on a training I was so only person of color. Um on the training itself. So that informed what I want to share. But also I just wanted to make anyone else as a teacher make their life a lot easier so that they had if they didn't have that exposure the book would help them to do so so I basically want to share my experiences but ways in which to make teaching to diverse communities a lot easier so that was very much the intention of the book. So. Sharing what I thought that other teachers would find valuable like language for me are very key aspect or things and things like when I was um, a teacher. No one talked to me about getting consent about touch. You know, I just got touched that was it. You know, full stop. So it was like letting teachers be aware because as you say a lot of teaching trainings aren't trauma- informed and um, my eyes were so much more, ah open when I went on these trainings. I'm sort of having to unlearn what I've learned and hopefully a lot of that comes through in the book to to make this transition or path for teachers a lot easier.

flowartists
And um I Guess what are the steps between saying "everyone's welcome in my class" and actually bringing that into reality and how do we navigate if we do get it wrong sometimes?

Donna
Yeah, but basically you see that a lot. Um that you know you see a description and it says beginners class say for instance and you go to the class and it's not beginners and it's like well what, you know?
Are you saying it's beginners because it's popular a trendy or you see another thing now everyone welcome and you know you hear of people's experiences that it's not. So one of the things that I would do to start with is the very careful observance of this, your description, is your description very clear?
Does it outline what a new person to class can expect?
Are they going to be touched?
You know, imagine if someone coming into class, I don't know you Jo you come. You touch me, you know Ah, they may ah may aware of that so look at all those things. Also the imagery that you use as well.
Did your imagery convey what someone can expect in class, you know you showing postures that are accessible?
You know, not someone with their leg behind the head because that to me doesn't convey a beginner's class and that puts people off because they're thinking I'm not flexible. There are so many you know, um objections to starting a yoga practice and the imagery I found for me was so powerful because if it lets somebody think that I can do that. That's that's a very key invitation for somebody but and and you as a teacher sharing your authentic voice not sharing just what you've you've been taught.
You know have you looked at the audience you're trying to to reach?
So how would you get that reach in them and I think when I spoke to you the last time that's one thing I didn't know what to do. I saw there were certain people invisible from the yoga space and it's like well how can I reach them?
You know where can I go to see what they're into so that I can make yoga make them see that yoga can help them in some way shape or form and then and that's trying to get them into the yoga space.
But once they're there, actually being skilled that you are able to teach to diverse bodies that you're often able to offer variations that you actually advocate the use of props you know, um, also showing I sometimes showing myself sitting in a chair. Doing yoga poses so that everyone can see the different ways in which yoga can be done because there's not one way that yoga is practiced or taught and that's how I say you can get it there but be your authentic self and if you come from a place of love I think and non harming that's how you can show that. To your potential community. So I hope that answers your question.

flowartists
Definitely and I totally get that in your writing as well like you're coming from a place of love and from ahimsa and I love that your tone It's really more about sharing knowledge. So We can all do better. Rather than kind of shaming anyone if this is new knowledge for them or if it wasn't part of their training because I think we've all had that experience. I've definitely had it in say an anatomy workshop where you learn something new and you think "oh my gosh like how many people have I harmed when I was doing this the other way?"
I think sometimes teachers can get really touchy about their teaching because it is so close to their hearts was this a tricky line for you to tread while you were writing because you're so passionate about these issues.

Donna
Yeah.

flowartists
And also that you have heard and had some really bad class experiences.

Donna
Yeah, um I think it is I think Jo I come to a place of collaboration. Like I feel that if I go in and start hitting someone of the head with what I believe it's not conducive to to change.
So I try to share in a way that so I get people to think about what it is they're doing, and I think that's more impactful than me dictating that it should be done this way, because I never had that. My teachers allowed me to question myself, not in a way that... was um, derogatory but in a way that what felt right for me in terms of what I shared and that's the way I come across, and even like it can be difficult, even you know, talking about race and and lack of diversity.
That in order to get people on board, I find the way that I talk about it and share as being very um, has been very impactful and it works for me and so that's why I do that. Ah and I find people receptive, and I've also found even the way I share, even when I teach on teacher training courses, that the the owner will come back and said you know the...But even like last week I've got a compliment saying that "the the new trainees have taken your energy and your teachings and that's what I want" not that "oh they came away and they just they were confused or lost and they learned nothing" but it's about making them see, and is this how, ah, "how can I make the most impact". That they are able to see what I'm trying to convey. It's not about me. It's about what they can learn or hear, that I say, or show them that will make them take what I shared into their teachings to make the yoga with that. Yeah.

flowartists
Yeah, definitely like you get the sense that like you're welcoming people into a whole community of like, different voices and different opinions and while there are some things that really only work for a minority of people so we want to kind of, excuse me, move away from that type of teaching and language. There is no perfect way of expressing something that's going to work for everyone, so to kind of open that up and kind of get people thinking about the why.
Rather than fixating on like a really dogmatic point of view is really powerful.

Donna
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I've seen where I've gone to trainings myself where he has been quite dogmatic and I've seen how people's back get up because people get defensive but they think you're accusing them. It's not like that at all, you know.

Donna
And that we all do make mistakes, but it's how we learn from those mistakes and I think what helped me as well to see and that inform the way I wrote was during lockdown. There were quite a few communities that came together because people felt lost during the you know post George Floyd and did not what to say, and teachers had questioned they what to ask but felt they couldn't because they felt they would get called out or so when we had these environments and we came and it was a confidential environment and we were there to share I got to see things from a different perspective but there are people that wanted to help. But didn't know how to help and they were just like rabbits in the headlamp. What can I do to to address some of the things that I'm seeing?
Say it was like okay, you've opened my eyes and so I'll hopefully address some of the concerns you've got but in the way that it's not accusatory. You know you've got privilege and duty. You're not doing you know, not like that at all because it's not going to help to to make yoga more accessible to the and and people are there to help you know there are genuine people that want to help um the community. Yeah.

flowartists
Yeah, definitely. And if you're... you ask a question that's a little bit tentative and you get shut down. It doesn't encourage asking more questions and learning more and ultimately um. Being a better human really as well as a better yoga teacher.

Donna
Um, and we all make mistakes you know I've made mistakes along the way and that you know hopefully the book will address some of those mistakes I made because I was trying to address communities that I had no experience of I'm sure I made mistakes along the way I'm sure I still will make mistakes but it's how I learn from those mistakes. Can I can do build in upon that?

flowartists
Yeah, absolutely, no, when you're writing it doesn't sound like you are someone who thinks you know everything it sounds like you are someone who is really open to always learning and one thing that I really loved in your book is you actually start with like the black femme roots of the body positive movement which I don't think we hear enough about would you like to share some of that history here?

Donna
Yeah, yeah, So I think the Body Positive movement had three iterations. You had it in, you had it back in the you know the suffragettes and then the body positivity movement as we know, not many people know is it started by the the the black femmes. And it was basically a movement for marginalized people to create spaces for those that were being ignored in society because their physical experience and it became part of the fat positive movement in the two merged together so became an um... an act of activism because it became political in that it was about getting equal rights for schooling, health and all the stuff that we all take for granted that's very much what it's about, but it was accepting yourself for how you were not that you had to conform to you know the Beauty ideals. That we we we see um and have to live with every single day so it was as far as ah, a form of rebellion against the norm. Basically.

flowartists
And especially since there are a lot of Trans people who were a part of that initial beginning who would not have seen themselves in media or really outside of like dedicated queer spaces I really got that it was like an act of defiance just being yourself.

Donna
Exactly yeah indeed.

flowartists
And it was dangerous being in the world at that time and sometimes now unfortunately.

Donna
Because when you see how bodies would discriminate. You know to be discriminated based on your size and your color you know so it was able to address that to that you know creating a space where you you you got away from all of that where you were honored and celebrated for who you were.

flowartists
And so like the movement's really grown, would you like to just share like what are some of the benefits of this getting bigger and reaching more people but also some of the more negative aspects of more and more people wanting to say their body positive and commercial companies getting on board?

Donna
I just think that, it's with movement growing, there's a lot more people out there celebrating their bodies and you see on social media in so many ways and it's becoming more normalized, but you still have the biases there but that's what I love about it being out there.
But you know it's informed yoga having it there as well. We've got body positive yoga as well. So and to show people how that their to to show that biases shouldn't be there because you look at someone based on their color or their size. Doesn't mean your judgment is going to be correct, because I see so many people you know that? ah that are curvy and they can do so things that I can't do as a person that's deemed as being slim and why should we not all love our bodies?
It shouldn't be reconfirm to this rigid beauty ideal. And it just hopefully normalizes all body types by being body positive being more um, accepted and more out there but the others the flip side to it because it's become sort of commercialized is that the people it was created by and for don't feel they belong anymore, and there's a small group of people trying to claim it back.
You can see that they've made the body positive positive movement all about self-love but it's not necessarily about self-love only and unfortunately have people that wouldn't be deemed as curvy saying their body positive or trying to say that they've got body fat but they happen, you know they have a space already and they're trying to encroach them into another space that should be the people that maybe don't see themselves in the mainstream.

So that's one of the flips that I've seen and it just it's lost its meaning really when you see in the in the mainstream. Do you have the same iteration where everyone is saying their body positive and it's not and as you say Jo, Not many people love at the background or the history of it so that again is lost. So there's only few places you google it. You can get the background but I don't think a lot of people know who it's again, it's been dominated by those that already accepted in the mainstream is what we're seeing as far. So.

flowartists
Yeah, and like you're saying like I get that people who are in a smaller body can still have bad body image and are still bombarded by those messages from the media. But um. It doesn't necessarily help someone who is from a much more marginalized community to kind of see their bikini Instagram post and you know hear about how they've like just got 5 Kg's more to go on their diet and then they can feel good about themselves. Like I feel bad for everyone who doesn't feel good in their own bodies. But it's also like this is a movement that has like a cultural root and a cultural emphasis and I think it's important to learn about that and to honor it. Something that I'm seeing like more as well is also the phrase body neutrality rather than body positivity.

Would you like to talk about like what's the difference between those 2 points of view?

Donna
So it it depends on you speak to Jo. Body positivity can mean self-acceptance, loving yourself for who you are essentially and at the core is one of the substances just its belief in yourself essentially as well is the core message regarded of shape your size or anything like that. Um, it has a positive view of your physical body regardless of that and it involves love in your body for what it is even if it isn't perfect according to society's beauty standards because it's about that's where again, going against the beauty standards again, but body neutrality is a middle road approach. And it's it's neither loving or hating your body. That's the difference between them. It doesn't mean you have to always love your body by being body neutral which body positive sometimes they lose a little bit more so I hope that answers your question there.

flowartists
Yeah, definitely and I've seen like another point of view as well of people do not need another source of pressure and expectation and failure in their lives so to be confronted by this message that you should love yourself when you currently, really hate yourself.

Donna
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

flowartists
Just getting to that neutral place is a lot more achievable and attainable than going straight to love and positivity.

Donna
Yeah, and I think you know and that's why I love with yoga because you know it's about self-acceptance, because I think if you accept yourself good or bad then from that place you may eventual get to self-love. Because I find that when I have that in in my class that students will come in with no expectation of yoga and then you can see how they accept their body, and their body showed them how powerful their bodies are and what their bodies can do for them.

We take for granted and then you see them in the class doing postures that they never thought they could do. And they take that from the yoga mat inset everyday life and they're doing things that they wouldn't maybe they think I can't do that because I look like this but they're beginning to be. You know what? hell no I'll do what I want to do and it's so nice to see that where they're showing up and they're showing their practice and they're wearing what they want to wear. You know they're not being limited in you and you know there's. Things that come with that. You know there's the body shaming but you know it's nice to see that there's a whole movement and you know you've got Lizzo and there's so there's people they're out there championing you know loving their body and showing it. It's okay to everybody as it is and embrace their bodies.

flowartists
Totally and like it doesn't mean that you can't work on getting stronger and feeling like you're doing something loving for your body if, like that's a workout because that can actually be helpful for mental health. It can be helpful for like sleep and physical health. So it's not just about um weight Loss. There's so many other aspects to movement and feeling good in your body and I think that's just such a beautiful aspect of.

flowartists
Accessible yoga and body positive yoga. It's this safe space where people can expand their range of possibilities and usually there's choices along the way. So you also get to have that practice of making decisions that feel right for you in that moment which is also something we often don't get in our everyday lives.

Donna
Exactly and you see it so much. I remember being at the Om Yoga Show. Ah, somebody came to the stand and she obviously must have had an interest in yoga. So I she said "I can't do your class because um I can't because of my size" I was able to get a picture of Jessamyn Stanley and show her and she went "really" and she was, and that just challenged her viewpoint of what her body could do, because if you look at yoga. There's one body type that we see all the time. And it's so good to see that there are people like Jessamyn and others out there that are showing that all bodies can do yoga. It doesn't matter, yoga welcomes everybody. It's us as teachers that sometime may not do so because of sometime our limitations, our teaching and like you said at the beginning Jo when we went on teacher training. We didn't maybe teach to diverse bodies because there weren't diverse bodies there and it's so good to see that there are teachers coming through that are all shaped sizes as well. But even sometimes they have body image issues because they feel they don't look like what teachers have looked like then you've got what a teacher should look like. You've got that but I'm so glad it's not stopping them from coming, so that you know more people will see someone that looks like them teaching so be welcoming more people into the yoga space.

flowartists
Yeah, so powerful and I really appreciate the section in your book on unconscious bias because I think it's so key. And I actually haven't experienced learning about this except in a um, accessible yoga or a trauma informed training, would you like to unpack a little bit for maybe people who aren't familiar with that concept?
What does unconscious bias mean and how might this play out say in a yoga class?

Donna
Okay, so unconscious, but unconscious bias is a social stereotype that certain groups of people may have about individuals, sort of their own conscious awareness and um and everyone has unconscious bias because some of it is there to save us.
Imagine you know if we saw a snake, our body would react to a certain way because it's it's it's trying to protect us.
But the way it may play in ah, in a yoga space is that um, when someone comes into our yoga space and we may make an assumption based on how they look. And that assumption may not be right and sometimes it can be based on size, you may look at someone based on their size and assume that they may not have a very good yoga practice and I have yoga friends that are teachers and who get consigned the back of the class because someone's looked at them and thinking that they're complete beginners. And that is wrong, on you know, also and a bias can be based on some so the color of someone's skin. I know that judgments had made about me based on just someone looking at the color of my skin as a teacher sometimes, as well. They they assume I'm not a teacher, they assume if I'm standing on reception you know, front of house waiting to check students in, they may not, they they don't think I'm a teacher because again as that image should be and also the way may plays out in class and I actually teach teachers to look at this is who do you spotlight in class. So if you get a student to demonstrate a posture who are you asking to demonstrate the posture is it someone that you know got and a regular posture but what I try I practice rather but what I try and do to change that sometimes, Jo is that if I have someone that's um, curvy I will actually ask that person with the agreement to demonstrate a posure because that will help to take down some of the biases that students have even you know students come into classes will have a bias about um, an unconscious bias about the teacher. They have an assumption that you know it's a two-way thing. We all have it there but it's it's what we need to do to become aware of it because we can change. Those potential bias that we may not be aware of you know because so so engrained we you know we get all these messages from society all the time that we're not aware of.

flowartists
Yeah, absolutely.

flowartists
And a big one that I notice as well. I've seen this with um other teachers who I've been doing trainings with is the assumption that someone in a larger body is coming to class for weight loss reasons. What if that person has an eating disorder and they're coming to class to learn to love their body just as it is?

Donna
Exactly or they just want to come and do the yoga. Like how I would go if I went to yoga no would assume I'm there from people. You know that I just want to enjoy the yoga practice. So why can't be better essentially but everybody's come in there that they're there for a reason and we see that all the time. I remember there was, I think it was online, I think Jivana shared it. But there was a ah, lot a teaching line of what he went to class and the receptionist tried to get them to go into the the next class, for beginners class, because they didn't think they had ah ah that they could keep up with the class or had the level of practice that was suitable and. Not and the teacher to go for that but they had the same thing with the teacher as well and at the end of the class. The teacher came up to her and said oh was the class. Okay, and you did okay, the patronizing you know that happens. Maybe when they see that oh you've challenged my viewpoint here. But. You know it's it's it's quite shocking and you get it all the time and and and that's where we need to change and I'm glad that now there is a language for it because a lot of the time as well in my training when I was going through my training there wasn't the language with it but we had the language now to to call these things out if we need to and address them. Ah, it's a wider audience understands what we're going through as one lived experience.

flowartists
Definitely and it's like just because someone has a different body from you. It doesn't mean they can't just live their life and do something because they enjoy it like it's...

Donna
Ah, yeah, but even conversely, I was in the class once and so I've got what you should say I've got long legs so I try to do standing a separate forward fold but I've got very tight hips and the teacher with a friend would stop the class. And said we're not going to move until Donna opens their legs wider but because then, I was, I'm deemed as being slim and I should be able to manipulate my body in a certain way. So their diet is working in so many different ways in in that respect. So you know we all get it sometimes.

flowartists
Nice and I love that you honor all of your teachers and the community and your work as' you just mentioned Jivana Heyman so um when you share. Um, what you've learned from a particular training or teacher. You're also supporting their work and directing the reader to where they can learn more. Um, this the subject you're covering is so vast and such so many areas like trauma informed teaching or working with eating disorders which really require additional training. So how hard was it to edit down all this knowledge to a reasonable book length.

Donna
Um, it was my my editors were quite good. They reined me in, because I because I I found the process so hard to write, um that I was writing it in at the same time and it was a struggle but it was it just right and see what comes out of you. So I think I wrote. What I felt was right issues, that I was seeing so eating disorders seems there's a lots of eating disorders I thought I ah I would address that because that's something we're seeing a lot in yoga but um, and and trauma informed yoga helped me so much that I understand. Understand so much more so I shared maybe what I found valuable to me and hope that others would as well. So Um, and I thought maybe there's another book out there but I could just touch on these and make reference to these teachers the teachers that found what I shared valuable could go off and learn more from the teachers that are ah skilled and knowledgeable in those areas but it I don't think it was that hard. I think in the beginning, the outline was very um, good. But as I said I was really reined in quite a bit if I went off too much and I think I could see what I wanted to share because if there was a lot of repeat. You could tell what I was passionate about sharing. That hopefully came from the book.

flowartists
Yeah, it definitely did and I really loved the multiple viewpoints because I think it again just shows like firstly there's a big global community of people doing this work and everyone has their own point of view and really like that's what this is about learning about other people's point of view so that we can. Open up this practice to a diversity of different people not just people exactly like us who think like us.

Donna
But yeah, and that's and that's what's so wonderful because my first started doing yoga I don't think I'd found my community but through the internet I've been able to connect with yourselves my teachers. Which I wouldn't have been able to do if we didn't have that because I would never maybe have been able to know about them and have access them and and the fact that you know we invite teachers over to the Uk. But also now that everyone's changed and they're teaching I think a lot more teachers now are teaching online to a global audience than you have access to those teachers that we wouldn't have. And it's so wonderful to be able to share their teachings to to other audience as well and that's the beauty of it. You know we're a community and it's good to able to share other voices.

flowartists
And this is like a technical question I guess, or an ethical question, when you're sharing what you've learned from other people's work and other training courses. Like with their consent, about maybe asking permission and how much to share?
Like you credit people really thoroughly and since their quotes are in the book you've obviously had a conversation with them before sharing. But I think there is this interesting aspect of teaching what we've paid to learn from trainings by other teachers and some people are actually quite guarded about what they share for free and the message is oh if you want to learn more about that you need to pay to do my course.

Donna
Yeah I think as long as you're not plagiarised in someone's working, you quote them back. I think that negates that, and the fact that you said that I've got the quotes showed that you know I actually went out there and actually because I remember there was one instance where there was um Susanna Barkataki there was something, I think I quote in the book and I couldn't find it. And I thought where'd I get this wrong and I thought I looked in her book but I couldn't patent the book. But it's on social media. This I say out to email I messaged there on Dms in Instagram and said Susanna "did this come from you?".
It should, yes, so you know so once I was able to ensure that I wasn't plagiarising anyones stuff there and you know as you say it - showing people that my work is informed by their work and I'm honoring them hopefully that is a form of flattery and as I say I credit them I didn't take anything and try to claim it as as my own. I think if you do that, then I think there should be no issue, but there are you know I know there are people that had their work plagiarised and have no credits as suppose like you know it's like cultural appropriation where things are taken and there's no credit back to it so being very aware of that as well. Not to say I'm culture properly appropriate anything but it's just have been that and known to honor who the work and give the credit to to those individuals I hope I did that.

flowartists
Yeah, absolutely and because most of the people you were speaking to come from a marginalized community and sometimes intersection of different marginalized identities. There is this messed up expectation that it's their responsibility to educate everyone else for free whether that's unpaid, emotional labour answering everyone's questions on the internet or even like presenting at a conference for free as though it's like this awesome opportunity and there's this tension between giving someone a platform to share their work and their knowledge and to educate others but also like fairly paying people for their work because that is their livelihood.

Donna
Yeah, no, and I think like I I don't get that so much now. But in the beginning there was so much that especially after George Floyd the Black Lives Matter. You know it was like my inbox for forward people went into ask questions. but um but I began to set boundaries. I think that's what helped me to navigate this and not being afraid to say no that and realizing that the knowledge I've got I had to learn that knowledge from somewhere. The same way others can do the same, so I'm not afraid to say no now and to and to be asking to be paid for my labor before I wouldn't I would say yes to most things but it's like no I can't you know to in order to be healthy. You know to my mental health and my wellbeing I have to say no and and do what resonates with me in that respect that um and you know I still if if something resonates with me I'll give my time for free. But if it doesn't it's not the norm anymore. I'm not so much afraid now, actually to go back this time, like should I take so I say yes so I go back and ask the question. It's okay, fine of that I'm not so much afraid before I say okay I'd assume that. Ah, because maybe it's like something that I want to do, not to expect payment but, as my mother says "if you don't ask you don't get" and and so not to be afraid in that sense then, so value your time. I've got to value my life and coaches have instilled that in me value your selfworth and that's what you have to do as teachers, because there's so much as being teachers. That this expectation it's for free. It's for free. It should be free and you feel guilty you're guilted into something. Well no, and then if I may not do it. There might be someone else that may do it but I certainly have to honor what I've done and and coming from a corporate background I think as well. Then it gets a little bit easier because you know, in corporate you get paid for what you you do type thing but a lot of teachers don't come from that background. There's that conflict they're knowing what to do best you know having your boundaries and looking after yourself because if you don't you can burn out.

flowartists
And now you've got a book you've written as well. So if you know if someone sends you one of those unsolicited Dms you can just send them the link to your book. Ah.

Donna
You do got think about you and that and that's so but you know, but but they someones genuine you know and there's times when people genuinely you know it's just a charity or someone I can help them out and given my time I will do so but the the amount of requests we get and it can be so much and somebody rightly said. It's not my job to fix everyone or or inform everybody I can't do that and and once they said it to me. It's so okay, that's a good point because before you feel you have to give anyone the knowledge because you want the world to be a better place but it's like you can't do that You can't do that. It's not and it's not only. My battle or fight to do so there are others out there champion the cause as well.

flowartists
And if you want to keep doing what you're doing in a sustainable way like you can't just work yourself into the ground for free like healthy boundaries keeps you healthy.

Donna
Do and it and and and it's good as well. Having people that are ahead of me is doing that example, um, exampling that for me as well which is good.

flowartists
So I Really enjoyed the section on gender and pronouns in your book and on using inclusive language in class. This was another thing that definitely wasn't covered in my initial teacher training. But I think that it's also something that a lot of teachers are scared to ask about because they don't want to get it wrong. So they just kind of don't address it at all. So I think a book is actually a perfect place to unpack. You know what kind of language is going to be welcoming for everyone. What kind of language is going to exclude people. Would you like to just share a little bit about some of the changes that we could all make to help everyone feel welcoming class of all genders?

Donna
Yeah, one thing is not to make any assumptions because we how somebody presents doesn't mean that's how they want to be to be addressed in that respect and make no assumption. So one of the first things and I'm still addressing. It is. It's so ingrained I will say guys a lot. Guys, was a very you know and but supposed to be a neutral term many years ago but like everything that evolved, but it's not anymore because it's got masculine connotations. So it's finding something that someone won't be offended by ah you know like some people say friends. It's finding something you're comfortable or you all, there's so many, I think I show a chart and they weren't ridiculous. But it showed different alternatives in that regard and "he" and you know using terms like "ladies" when you know, you don't know who's in the room or anything like that or even when you if you if you talk about posture like Chatteranga and say "Oh men should find that easier because they've got muscles". It's like "all individuals may have been that easier because you know because they've got the strength". It's being careful about those things and and using you know, um, gendered body you know parts as well in in in class you know to to to help with alignment you know use. Room may be is landmarks instead of of doing that and even and so it's very important because you don't want to offend anybody and it's so I know it can be mindful but think about what you're saying before you say it and if you think it's got the potential to offend somebody. It's best. Not to say it. You know and well we'll make mistakes because language changes all the time. The things things that were okay to say five years ago may not be okay to say now you know even like another one is it pregnant women. Yeah say pregnant people instead so try and think about some of those the language because language is important. It can inspire it can devastate. And gendered language is even more important because now we live in a world where people present in different ways and that's the beauty of it. But we as teachers. It's our duty to to create a welcoming space and not to offend anybody if we can do so and language is one of the key ways to do so.

flowartists
And I'm still working on guys as well that one comes out of my mouth now and again.

Donna
Um, a guy jar every time I should put somebody 'guyed'. Ah ah to a swear jar but it isn't and even other day it came out it slicked up but it's it's quite funny when I tell and it's funny because I all say things like you know, not gendered language but language again we say the word just which can be du very able is. And I told my friends in class and you can you can see them looking up because they they kept themselves I've stopped telling my friends about well because it it disrupts the flow of their class because they're trying to not say it. So. There's so much in terms of language I mean's I think a very big topic I cover in the books I think it's so it's very much so important and. But again, we're humans and but you know and to to be aware of what we're saying I think just to be aware of what we're saying and that will help to make the class as as welcome and as possible. But as we say things that are okay today. And maybe end something that we don't say anymore.


flowartists
And I think as well. A big part of it is people actually having the confidence to tell people that this is not okay or that's not my gender or that's not how I'm comfortable being addressed. And one thing that I read which I think is a very helpful insight is when someone calls you out on something or just brings something to your awareness rather than saying "sorry" which then sets it up that they have to go "oh that's okay" say thank you.

Donna
Yeah, yeah, exactly that as well. Yeah I think you're right? So I think when I was in one of my trainings. They said if you make a mistake. Don't always say sorry because it draws more attention to it. Someone may not be aware of it and you know in that respect. So it's it's a mindfield we navigate. But I think being aware that language that lot of us works so it was never addressed in my training. It's only in the trainings that I've done in recent years that I began to realize how important language is and and to to understand it a lot more.

flowartists
Yeah, and also like there's the spoken language but there's things as well. Like if it's possible to have a bathroom that doesn't have a male or a female sign on the door like a bathroom that everyone can go to.

Donna
Exactly but in London we're seeing a lot more now I think you know we we've become very much um, aware of this and it's nice to see that happening in some of the yoga but also mainstream plates places as well that you know we're being more aware to be. You know, non-gendered in life as much as possible.

flowartists
Yeah, we're lucky we've only got 1 bathroom so we never gendered it so we didn't have to change anything and so one of the other things that I really appreciate about your book is as well as the philosophy.

Donna
That good.

flowartists
But you cover a lot of the realities of teaching yoga today like there's a really great section on using props in class but also like marketing and navigating both working within a studio versus hiring out a studio and how you can grow your business ethically like it feels like you pulled back the curtain a little bit on what goes on. Behind the scenes and it also felt like it really came from your own experiences would you like to share a little bit about everything beyond the philosophy behind this practice just an easy quick question.

Donna
I just I think a lot of it's from my own experience. You know a lot of it comes through like how I started to market how I was able to um, reach groups that were invisible on the yoga space. How I was able to. To go to where they were that I was able to take the yoga to them but also in the imagery. I know I think for me imagery became a very powerful way to to show but because I think I didn't realize how powerful my image was until, I think it was Yoga International. Um, about five years ago I went to um to teach and it was like of the last class and you you know in the UK it's always raining it was meant to be some and it wasn't and I thought I don't want to be here and but no was going to turn out and um and I was doing the Body Positive Yoga but targeting people in larger bodies. But I didn't think about myself as a person of color. How powerful I was as ah as a person in terms of being visible. So when I went to the club due to class I was so surprised by how many people that came and how many people of color came and then um and then someone actually turned to me said well if you didn't you realize that class you taught there was. Was quite a lot of people of color I said "oh yeah" I realized that I still was not dismissive but didn't realize the impact it was and at the end when they said to me "Donna we came to support you and you need to be more visible". That's when I began to realize that. It's not about me. It's about the students and who I can help to get the yoga mat and that's why I say you know marketing is is so key and hearing some of the horror stories about people going to classes that were labeled as beginners and they weren't and they'd put people of that's why I think. When you market give as much much information as possible. You know I even shared that I will say to individuals you can interview me about my class you want talk you can come to my class if you want to and and and and see what it's like but by talking to me before class I can talk about any um objections they may potentially have. And and allay any fears but always they get a sense of my energy and that's happened so many times that been on the borderline and he's "oh well, do you know what? you've sold it to me", you know and I talk to anyone you know I take yoga off the off the yoga mat I'll talk to anyone about yoga anyone that says I don't like yoga and I'll try to change that viewpoint and and it's successful. But. That's how you know for me taking yoga off the mat is the most powerful thing as teachers. It's what we need. It's how we get people the yoga space so marketing for me is the key one and show my experiences as much as possible because I didn't have a clue when I said that how to to change yoga.

Donna
But that experience I'm happy to share with anybody. So I hope that answers your question. Yes.

flowartists
Definitely and I've got another question because um, you've spoken about how you're not necessarily in what most people would define as a larger body and the classes that you teach are aimed at larger people. Curvy people. So if you only shared pictures of yourself on the flyer people might see that and there's a disconnect between how you look and what you're going to like who else is going to be in that class. What suggestions do you have for people who want to represent that their classes are for everyone, when they are in one particular body type and maybe from one particular cultural background, like what do you do?

Donna
I share diverse images. There's so much on on social media. But also I will also get the approval of my students as well. Just I can use it image in class like that. There's a video I show and it's very it's got various individuals. It's it's very diverse. And I shared that and you say people say "wow" so I was very lucky because I've been doing for quite some time I've got a lot of imagery that I can call to to share on social media. But I said the same thing use this diverse imagery out they use those with people's approval because a lot of teachers will allow. You know. Ah, but teachers or students were allowed to use their image as well. But it's so nice to see that there is so so um, the teaching image is changing and I can see so much diversity on Instagram on social media myself as well and I also appreciate that because I don't represent. That image all the time that there are people that won't come to me because they will go to a class that and I think someone says in the book that they will go to a class with someone that looks like them because they feel they will understand it then their body more and understand what their experiences are more and that's fine, but you know we've got so many teachers. Out there in the world that there's someone that will appeal to everybody is why said teach to be who you want to be because whoever you are will appeal to somebody. You'll find some that resonates with you resenting just style. So be authentic.

flowartists
And I think as though the more images that we see that are from a class. Not a photo studio of you know, designer outfits and photoshop like just real life people doing this practice. Um like that helps everyone.

Donna
Yeah, it does and it normalizes all body types and that's the thing. That's what we're we're working towards that you won't You know you you just you look at a body and a body in a yoga pose and that's where we're trying to get to say everyone will come. So someone would think of something Oh that's unusual or that's not the norm.. That's what we're working towards we we know we've we've come some way from when I started but we still have a long way to go.

flowartists
Nice and um on that. Now I guess we've got one more question. We asked you this last time and but I'm wondering that. Um yeah in the last few years since we spoke to you um and and everything that you've learned in that time and everything that. You've taught and maybe written about um if if you could distill it down to one core essence. What do you think that one thing would be of of everything that you've learned or or taught or written about in the last um few years

Donna
So the 1 core essence of what sorry i.

Donna
God Um, that yoga is for everybody, that you know it it should it should welcome everybody? Um, and that a lot of what we're seeing now is cyclical because when we go back to certain things. We'll see that. Yoga was always accessible but it's the knowledge is not there but you if you if you dig back you see or even about gender fluidity that we're seeing a lot of it now. But it's not a new concept. A lot of things. Yoga is I think becoming what it it. Was meant to be if ah if that makes sense. That's what I'm I'm seeing in that regard.

flowartists
Yeah, absolutely and actually this builds on a previous interview with um Nischala Joy Devi and she was saying how a lot of the translations that we read about yoga are from a colonial point of view and from a patriarchal point of view. So. We're really getting back to the more true essence of the original text and the original practice by taking away that particular filter and opening up the lens to a whole lot of other different points of view.

Donna
Exactly and I think the key thing for me is you know, unlearning to relearn I think that's what has been key for me that as you so as Jo so eloquently put that the lens I've learned from was a very westernized lens. But by un learning coming to Indigenous teachings I'm learning what yoga was about and what it can be and that there's a lot of us that are are ah creating that now and a lot of people that want to create that because they understanding that it's not what it was really um about or is about.

flowartists
Fantastic And thank you for like your wonderful contribution to this discourse with your book and with everything that you share.

Donna
Yeah, Thank you. Yeah, I you know, I think for me I just I just I I'm just Donna I suppose I Just do what I feel core to do I tend to go with the flown and if the path I had the path Unfolds I I Just really go with it and the Book. Became part of that path. So I'm here to see what's gonna happen next I don't know so I'm just here um waiting the launch will be soon. So That's the next thing That's the only thing I've got planned but thank you for your comments.

flowartists
Awesome! Thank you! Yeah, thank you so much for speaking with us and for everything you do And yeah, yeah, thanks.

Donna
Ah, thank you for having me so with a pleasure.

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