Jivana Heyman - Accessible Yoga
For our very special 50th full-length episode, we have a very special guest! Jivana Heyman is a yoga teacher, a yoga therapist, the creator of the Accessible Yoga conferences that run all over the world and author of the forthcoming book “Accessible Yoga: Poses & Practices for Every Body.” This is a topic that is very important to Rane and Jo so we thought that Jivana would be the best possible guest to have for our 50th!
We both strongly believe that individuals in all types of bodies should be able to benefit from the gifts that yoga can provide. We really appreciate Jivana's work connecting a global community of teachers who share these goals.
In this episode, Jivana tells us about his early days practising yoga with his grandmother. We learn how his work as an AIDs activist informs his work today and how being isolated by geography encouraged him to build a community online. We also learn how he found true inspiration in highlighting the work of other great teachers.
Accessible Yoga: http://accessibleyoga.org/
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Click on a timecode to play from that time in the recording.3:14 Jivana’s background, growing up on the east coast before moving to California
3:25 How did Jivana discover yoga?
5:11 Was Jivana always drawn to an accessible yoga practice, or was this something that evolved over time?
5:20 Life in the mid 80’s - coming out and dealing with the AIDS epidemic.
6:48 How yoga was of benefit to people suffering from AIDS and their loved ones
8:43 AccessibleYoga.org’s mission today
10:26 The community aspect of teacher trainings.
11:26 Moving to southern California, away from his yoga family.
12:10 How Jivana transformed feelings of jealousy into positive action.
13:22 Jivana’s ability to share accessible yoga to connect a global community
15:09 About the Accessible Yoga conferences
18:06 The commercialisation of yoga.
19:58 What are some perceptions that might be blocking people’s access to yoga?
21:14 How do we make a sustainable living as yoga teachers while enabling it to be financially accessible for as many people as possible?
25:06 Some of Jivana’s strategies for teaching a group of people with diverse levels of ability?
27:40 Using your creativity as a teacher
28:45 A Short break - our Patreon Page!
30:10 How would you as a new teacher assess whether you have the skills to teach someone safely if they have a condition you are unfamiliar with, and how do you skillfully let them know if you feel unable to help them?
33:30 Scope of practice of a yoga teacher
37:58 Jivana talks about his forthcoming book.
39:23 What are the next steps for Accessible Yoga?
43:52 How important is it to represent the diversity of yoga online?
48:40 Running a not for profit
49:38 Has Jivana got any conferences planned in Australia?
50:36 Accessible Yoga groups on Facebook
52:40 Jivana turns our final question back on to us :)
54:08 What is the core essense of what Jivana want’s to bring into the world?
Please email us to report any transcription errorsRane Bowen: Hello. My name is Rane and this is the Flow Artists Podcast. Every episode we interview inspiring movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow in much, much more. I hope your day is going great so far. I am doing very well. Thank you very much. It's a little bit cold here in Melbourne, but I am very excited because it's our 50th full length episode. Now we do have a short introduction episode that are recorded a long time ago. I might redo that one, but I don't think that really counts. Now we have a very special guest for our 50th episode and that guest is Jivana Heyman. Jivana is a yoga teacher, a yoga therapist, the creator of the accessible yoga conferences that run all over the world and author of the forthcoming book Accessible Yoga: Poses and Practices for Every Body. Now this is a topic that is very important to Jo and myself and we thought that Jivana that would be a great guest to have for this very special episode.
Rane Bowen: If you're new to our podcast, you might not know that around four years ago I was diagnosed with stomach cancer and my stomach was removed later on that year. Yoga and meditation played an important part of my recovery and though I'd done a lot of yoga previously, a lot of poses and movements were not available to me during that period of time. And Jo, who is an amazing Yoga and Pilates teacher was able to provide modifications that were much more accessible to me with the limitations that I had at the time, and gradually I was able to build my strength back up way to make it all about me, huh. But seriously, Jo and I both strongly believe that individuals and all types of bodies should be able to benefit from the gifts that yoga can provide. People in larger bodies, people suffering from chronic illness or the elderly, just to name a few examples.
Rane Bowen: Now, part of the challenge of accessible yoga, I believe, is that it can challenge our assumptions of what an individual may or may not be capable of. Movements or postures that one person might take for granted might be nearly impossible for someone else. So how do we bridge that gap? Well, I think it's through empathy and presence only through fully acknowledging someone's capabilities and limitations can we really provide them with the help that they may require. Anyhow, I might be stating the obvious here, but that's my little soapbox moment. Before we get onto the interview, I'd like to ask you a question. What do you think are common assumptions or things we might take for granted in the practice of yoga or movement in general, and how do we address them?
Rane Bowen: I'd love to hear your answers. You can join our Facebook group, the Flow Artist Podcast community, or comment on our website @podcast.flowartists.com. Get at me. All right, that is more than enough for me. Let's get on to this recorded conversation between myself, cohost Jo Stewart, and our guest, Jivana Heyman.
Jo Stewart: Perhaps you could just start by telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up.
Jivana Heyman: I grew up actually in New York and Connecticut, kind of on the East Coast and then I moved to California right after university, and I've been living here in California really ever since.
Jo Stewart: And how did you discover yoga?
Jivana Heyman: Oh yeah, that's a longer story, but my grandmother actually taught me Yoga when I was a kid. She was really early adopter and I think she probably started in the 1950s because she's actually from LA, so she was here in LA and doing that back then. And, so then when I was little she would, she had a daily practice, and I was just always mesmerized by it. I would just sit and watch her, when she puts her live with us a lot of the time. And then eventually she taught me a little bit and then I stopped. I didn't really practice regularly until after university, I was really struggling with stress and I just stumbled into a yoga class and actually was really interesting. It was the same kind of yoga that she was doing, which was integral yoga. Swami Satchidananda, which isn't really that shocking because he was kind of big in California in the 60s, I'm big in the US really she had studied retirement and I ended up studying with a teacher that student affairs as well. So that was kind of interesting.
Jo Stewart: And it's also like, that's a set sequence of postures every class, right?
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, definitely. It's a very like organized, structured Hatha kind of classical Hatha yoga school. But, I think what's amazing about integral yoga is that a lot of things, I mean one is that, he really tried to bring in all eight limbs, and he would then teach about them all the time. And also that he was really interested in, well what we now call yoga therapy, but who's really interested in yoga for healing in general. And so that was definitely interesting for me because I already had that kind of background going when I started doing my work with accessible yoga.
Jo Stewart: I was actually wondering that. So, were you always drawn to accessible yoga as a focus or is that something that evolved over time?
Jivana Heyman: Well, so I'm a gay man. And I came out, and I don't know, 1984 or somewhere in 1985 came out of the closet and that was right in the middle of the AIDS epidemic, and so many people that I met and eventual friends and boyfriends and my best friends then got AIDs and died of AIDs. He died in 1995 and so I was, at that time I really became an AIDs activist. And so, I spent those years just like kind of a crazy alternative lifestyle. I mean we were marching on the streets and finding demonstrations, and getting arrested and doing a lot of crazy stuff. Like I was really out there and, I worked in an AIDs hospice. I worked for an AIDs newsletter.
Jivana Heyman: I mean I was just totally absorbed in that and that was kind of just going to yoga for myself, I kind of rediscovered yoga at that time. Really just true for me. I could deal with that. What was happening to me and then when I decided to become a teacher, it was obvious that I would just bring it to that community, from my community and that's what I did. So really accessible yoga started with trying to bring them there to people with HIV and AIDs.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, just to response-
Jivana Heyman: I started in San Francisco.
Jo Stewart: Yoga would have been a really powerful force then as well because I know that medical treatments have evolved a lot now, but in the early years there either wasn't that much available, or it just took a really intense toll on people's bodies though. Having a practice that you could turn to that would just give you a bit of calm and space and clarity. Seeing all of that around you and affecting people that you love would just be so powerful.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, I mean that's exactly right. I was... It was really a horrible time. I mean, looking back now and I forgot that like even for younger people, they don't even really know what happens, and this whole community was being decimated and there were hardly any treatments. So, in the early days there were really none. And, I was actually involved in studying some alternative treatments while writing about them. So, I would write about alternative treatments for this newsletter. And Yeah, I really felt that yoga was a great tool. I still do, for in so many ways. And that was part of my inspiration was just wanting to share, and it was helping me, I just felt like yoga really keeping me sane and well, or something close to that. And, I just wanted to share it with my friends and people who were really having a hard time.
Jivana Heyman: And, it was quite something. We had, I had one class that went on for about 12 years in San Francisco at a hospital there, people with HIV and AIDs. And I mean, it was pretty painful at times. There was almost one group, but so many people in that group died, and then we'd have new people come. And eventually I opened the class to people with other disabilities too. So, we had more of a mixed group. But I know that for many of them they felt that yoga was really lifesaving. No, it really gave them some just grounding. I remember one student told me that in fact it was, this is pretty early on, the medications weren't working for him and he was really almost near death. He was like a skeleton, and could barely come to class and he was depressed. And he told me actually what happened was, that yoga really gave him kind of second chance, because he said that because of yoga, he didn't just kind of go fall into a deep depression. That yoga kind of helped him be more peaceful and that he stayed alive long enough to get a new medication that actually then really helped. And he still actually alive now.
Jo Stewart: Wow.
Jivana Heyman: Now he's the yoga teacher.
Rane Bowen: Yeah wow.
Jo Stewart: Could you tell us about accessibleyoga.orgs mission today?
Jivana Heyman: Well, I could connect it to that story a little, which is that from those early classes I, and I know it was early, that was, we're talking about the 90s I was doing that work and then when I eventually became as a full time yoga teacher, and I was leading 200 hour trainings. That's my... Really my main job. And, I started getting frustrated though because I noticed people coming to the 200 hour training. Usually were pretty new. You know what Yoga, a lot of them. And, then I had longtime students who had disabilities who were really dedicated to yoga, and I felt that they would be great yoga teachers, but they didn't, many of them didn't want them to take the teacher training. And I kept encouraging them, but they wouldn't do it because I felt that it wasn't accessible to them for many reasons.
Jivana Heyman: So the name accessible yoga actually started, when I started at 200 hour training for people with disabilities to become yoga teachers. That was around, I don't know, 2005, 2006. And so, it was kind of, I had this kind of shift in my thinking about making yoga accessible and what I was really focused on was making the kind of a deeper teachings of yoga accessible rather than, because I knew there was a shift towards yoga therapy happening at that time and everything, but that's not really what I was interested in as much.
Jivana Heyman: Even though I am a yoga therapist, but I'm more interested in just empowering people with tools, and I find that teacher training, it's just a great way to do that. I love teacher training. It's like you get immersed in yoga, and so if you don't think of yourself as a potential teacher, you kind of miss out on that opportunity, which really makes me sad. That, we kind of save the good stuff for people who think they can be yoga teachers. And then most yoga classes don't go into, like I said, the eight limbs or really yoga philosophy or anything like that. So anyway, that's a long story.
Jo Stewart: Oh, that's great.
Jivana Heyman: The name accessible yoga and how it started and actually many of the people in those trainings that I did back then are still on our board, so they kind of helped me create the organization.
Jo Stewart: Fantastic. I find this all with teacher training as well as being this chance to immerse yourself in learning about yoga. It's this chance to begin this real community of other people that love Yoga and you're all learning and evolving together. Is that also part of the accessible yoga mission to really help people connect with community?
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, exactly. That's right. So, I completely agree with that. I think to me, I would almost say community might be the most important part of yoga. Without community, I'd say it's almost impossible to have a strong practice or spiritual practice really without support of other people, and it just makes such a difference to me and in my life. Yeah. I guess the next part of the story actually is about that, which is, that was all happening in San Francisco. And, then I moved away for family reasons. We moved down to southern California. It's quite far actually. And, I had to basically leave my yoga community and now it's just about six years ago. And that's when I realized I was here, feeling sorry for myself and kind of slow me, without my yoga family that I'd had for so long. And it's like, so according to me, I was a little bit confused and I remember, I was feeling jealous.
Jivana Heyman: This is the main story I tell a lot, I was telling somebody, the one friend I had here in town, Cheri Clampett who's a great yoga teacher, therapeutic yoga, I was jealous of her, and I thought, wow, that's not very yoga community. I'd be jealous because she was doing such beautiful work. She was teaching Yoga at the cancer center here. She still does. I thought, wow, that's really that. I'm not practicing yoga, I'm jealous of her. That's just, I don't know what. So, then I thought well I should use yoga to deal with this and I thought it probably talks about [inaudible 00:12:16]. Do you know that teaching you from the Yoga Sutras?
Jo Stewart: Oh maybe say it out loud to me if we don't know.
Jivana Heyman: So probably part [inaudible 00:12:23] when I was like basically replacing negative thinking with positive or opposite thoughts or just reflecting on your negative thinking. So, I was thinking about, how I was feeling jealous and part of it too that, I was kind of having to restart my whole like the yoga career down here in southern California, and I just... Was really just so overwhelmed by the idea of all the marketing and the kind of self promotion that's necessary in the yoga world. I was really resisting that.
Jo Stewart: I think that's something that you are fantastic at, not so much self promotion but just promotion of accessible yoga and celebrating other amazing teachers, and practitioners and just sharing this really great diversity of here are all of the different bodies with all of these different needs and they're all practicing yoga, and you might be the one person in your town that's doing it, but you are connecting people with this global community.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, that was exactly my idea. So, when I really reflected on my kind of selfish worry and feeling of isolation and loneliness, I realized that I turn it around. To me, the opposite of that is to support others. And so, I literally like... I had this realization at that moment that it was honestly a vision that came to me of my friend Cheri Clampett on a stage. And I realized that I needed to create a platform for yoga teachers who do the work that I admire and that would also serve me. But My focus was rather than on myself, it's actually supporting anyone who's doing that work. Anyone who's trying to make yoga accessible. And, that's why I created the conference. So we started the conference and that was my vision of Cheri being on a stage, and I thought, oh, we can have a conference, and she could be our speaker. Which she was at the first conference so, I would say...
Jo Stewart: Fantastic.
Jivana Heyman: It was very exciting. Yeah, it was great. And I'm glad you, I appreciate you noticing that because that is actually what I do. I actually don't share my own teaching very much. It's a practice of mine now. I mean, since then she was just focused on others, and she tried to look to other people after we do the work I admire.
Jo Stewart: Oh yeah. Well, you're definitely reaching your global audience because we've seen you all the way from Melbourne.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, right. Here we are. But isn't that quite amazing though? I just have to, I'm kind of amazed by myself that it's actually because I was doing something that was not about me. You know what I mean?
Jo Stewart: Yeah definitely.
Jivana Heyman: It's like, I think that's [crosstalk 00:14:46].
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: I almost didn't believe it myself, but it's true. My ego still thinks I have to worry about myself all the time. But really it kind of all happened and my life just totally changed after that. It was just amazing. It's been like an exclusion, that accessible yoga. I hadn't, couldn't imagine that.
Jo Stewart: Would you like to tell us a little bit more about the conferences?
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, so I mean that's the underlying theme for me still. I try to come back to that idea of mutual support and community and education and that's what the conferences is all about. And, these days, so much happens online. But, I really enjoy being in community, in person with people. So, that's why we do them. It takes a lot of, like a lot of ridiculous amount of work to actually organize an event. It is, when I looked at what I can do online versus what I have to do to create a conference, it's kind of silly, but it's worth that because it's like a feeling of a family reunion. Honestly, at this point we've had about six already and I think, and there's a lot of the same people and a lot of new people too, but it just has this very sweet feeling, their own community and they're not huge, seriously, it's just under 200 people at each one and actually quite a bit of a lot of presenter because I usually have around 20 or 25 presenters because I want to give everyone that platform.
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: It's nice. It's really just like a networking, get to know each other, learn a little bit. So there's lots of short presentations. People can learn about many different things happening in yoga. And, my idea is that, you could come to a conference and maybe meet 10 or 20 different teachers, and then decide, Oh God, I have to study with that person.
Jo Stewart: It's just like a little ticed.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah. And I always give a homework assignment, which I actually posted today on our Facebook group, the same one, which is that I tell everybody who comes there, I try to get them to do the kind of same thing that I'm doing, which is, I would say, find somebody here who you can support, but that's your homework assignment while you're here. It's like meet someone. And like see if you're excited about their work, and find a way to help them.
Jo Stewart: Oh that's great.
Jivana Heyman: And then your benefits. Obviously someone has to do that for you hopefully. But it is so nice and actually I've seen a lot of amazing things come out of that. Really.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, that sounds lovely.
Jivana Heyman: I can be a little negative about it too. And just say, I think that Yoga, we're facing kind of large commercial interest in yoga and I feel like this is the only way I can think of right now to counteract that.
Jo Stewart: Definitely.
Jivana Heyman: Commercialization.
Jo Stewart: And, it's counteracting it in a really positive, powerful way. Like you're not just being all like, oh, this isn't what yoga is about. Like it's not just, skinny bodies in leggings, but you'll actually showing an alternative and showing an alternative in a way that could really, if someone's perception of yoga is just what they see on Instagram, it could just be a complete turn off. Like this is not for me, this is not who I am, this is not what I'm all about. But, because you just show so many different perspectives, you really give this full breadth of all that yoga has to offer. But also you kind of give voice to other people who might be a little bit hesitant about putting their own point of view out there. So, I think it works in a lot of levels and I think it's really powerful.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, exactly. It's interesting to me that the commercialization of yoga kind of has this very dangerous effect in ways we don't even see it. And, one of them is that many people don't think they can practice, or they could teach. So, even people who are practicing, who love Yoga, many people who... They might be passionate about yoga, they think, oh, I couldn't be a yoga teacher because I don't look like that. I don't look like that image. I see. So, I think that's essential to me. I think we need to have more diversity in our teachers and that's the only way this do it. Like you are saying, I like to put people out there, kind of lift them up and say, look, you can be a teacher too, anyone can, anyone who's passionate about yoga can be a yoga teacher.
Jivana Heyman: I don't have to be able to do anything extreme. I've trained people who are very limited mobility people and use wheelchairs or whatever. I mean Matthew Stanford as an example, if you know him, he's one of the powerful yoga teachers I know. He's paralyzed from the waist down, he's incredible. But I mean, anyway, anyone who's passionate about yoga, can share it? And I think that's what needs to change is that misconception of what yoga is and who can do it. And I just want to just go back again to my early days as an AIDS activist, because I actually would say so much of that is still in my head and I think the community organizing I'm doing comes directly out of activism and really trying to find ways to give voice to people outside of mainstream channels to what we were doing marching on the streets back then. Now, there is other ways, social media.
Jo Stewart: That's a lot.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah.
Jo Stewart: And so, I guess there are some visible factors that might block people's access to yoga or some perceptions that, media contributes to that might be feeling like they're blocking people's access to yoga. What are some of the other factors that maybe people listening might not already be aware of?
Jivana Heyman: Well, I think the biggest one is our own ideas about what yoga is or misunderstanding that people think of it as advanced gymnastic craftiness and it does seem like we've gone that direction. So, I would say yeah, for some people their practice is extremely physical, but I don't think that's necessarily what yoga is per se. I mean yoga is really such a broad thing. And you could just sit and meditate and you say you're practicing yoga, and in fact meditation might be the ultimate practice.
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: So I think there's misunderstanding or maybe of Yoga is the biggest obstacle, do you think?
Jo Stewart: Yeah. I think another challenge I've thought of, we have a small studio and financial factors are a big issue and this is something I've thought about for myself. Like to make a sustainable living as a teacher, we generally encourage to specialize, and to charge more for our time and more for our classes. However, finances are a major barrier for a lot of people to attend yoga classes and especially people who might be dealing with financial stresses in their lives, who could really benefit from yoga emotionally. And so, I've just been trying to think about, what are some ways that we can make yoga sustainable for teachers, but also how to make classes accessible for everyone financially.
Jivana Heyman: I also, I'm very interested in that question. I would like to know how can we make it financially sustainable for teachers who, especially teachers who are dedicated to accessibility and equality and who might not want to necessarily work in a more gymnastic style of yoga. Because I feel like, it seems to me, I could be wrong, but it seems like there's money in those large classes and you have a lot of people. When you offer a more accessible practice, even though you reach a broader audience, you might end up with a smaller class per se. I don't think accessible yoga is a real money maker and that's concerns me. I would like it to be.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, because often it requires some more specialized training, which is also expensive, and just to give everyone in that class a good experience and the attention that they might need because there's often different options needed. You just can't do that for 50 people at once.
Jivana Heyman: It's such a good point. I think that's where I differentiate accessible yoga from yoga therapy because I actually think that accessible yoga, you don't need a lot of training to make your classes accessible. I mean one of the things I do is be trainings, inaccessible yoga and I there it's a 30 hour training, which is not very long. And, I actually have been working with yoga alliance in the US, and trying to integrate some of those concepts into all trainings. I mean, because my goal would be that all 200 hour trainings include that material already because actually in the US there's laws that public accommodation should be accessible and I feel like yoga classes are public and anyone with a disability should be allowed to go into the class and not be excluded. So, I feel it's actually the right thing to do and it's the legal thing to do in the US but it doesn't mean it happens.
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: By Yoga therapy, which is amazing. We needed a lot of training, a lot of training, and that's more of a specialization in trying to help someone with their own self healing and that's not what I'm talking about. Accessible Yoga is more just making regular yoga accessible to anyone who wants it because my dream is that anyone could go to any class and the teacher could handle that basically.
Jo Stewart: I guess just part of that process of this is how you teach this pose. It's just expanding it to, this is how you teach this pose to a larger number of people who have some different needs.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah I mean, to me it's like just logical. I mean because it's just... Like I said, we misconstrue yoga and that to be this extreme physical practice, but if you look beyond that part, you realize that being an advanced Yogi or being good at yoga, it doesn't mean you can cut your toes or stand on your head or any of that. To me, it means you are comfortable with yourself. You have some peace of mind, you have some tools that help you in difficult situations. I mean, that's advanced yoga and I think everyone needs that. And, even for all the people who do that very extreme physical practice, what's going to happen when they get old or when they get sick? What are they going to do? Are they going to have sailed at Yoga because they're old? There's some, we're like so... we're so limited in our thinking, I think, and not looking at a big picture of what it's going to actually serve us then in the end.
Jo Stewart: And like aging, that is something that is going to affect all of us.
Jivana Heyman: If you're lucky.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, true. I mean, not all of us.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah. Either you are going to get sick or you're just going to get old and probably both. I mean, it's just, that's how life is, we can't avoid it.
Rane Bowen: Absolutely. So do you have any teaching strategies for teaching a diverse group of different ages, abilities, and sizes, so that everyone has a great experience in your classes?
Jivana Heyman: Yes!
Rane Bowen: I thought you might!
Jivana Heyman: I do. I can tell you quickly a few, but I would say that's what that training is actually. That training is not about, it's not yoga therapy. You know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to find ways of healing different illnesses. What I'm trying to do is just make the practices accessible to anyone who wants them. And so, there's two main areas I focus on in the training. One is on how to adopt mostly the physical practices. And that means trying to come up with skills, giving teachers skills to learn how to adapt in the moment, rather than having to memorize a bunch of variations of poses to actually look at what skills you need to be able to think on the spot and be creative and collaborate with your students. So, those are the two words I focus on in approach yoga in a more creative way.
Jivana Heyman: And also work on collaboration to learn how to empower the students to help make those decisions and, in fact empower them in general. Because, I think that's what we're trying to do in yoga, empower people to, that's the one side is to work on kind of the Asana. We do some, I start by looking at why do we practice this pose? Like why? What is the purpose? And then, if you kind of get what some of the main why's are the benefits, maybe you can look at, oh well how can I give that same benefit to someone practicing in a chair or practicing in a bed or practicing standing up alone? And then it becomes kind of a fun challenge to think of ways to do that. Too. And sometimes it doesn't look the same. Its not like I don't have to make a pose look the same in a chair, on the mat, but maybe it has the same feeling like, do you know what I'm saying?
Jo Stewart: [crosstalk 00:26:45] Oh, definitely. Yeah. absolutely. It's that thing of like, it's not external picture of what this pose is all about. It's like you're saying the benefits and the sensation and it's kind of, oh, how can I rearrange things so that this person can get that benefit out of that pose in a way that works for them?
Jivana Heyman: Exactly. There's a number of ways to do that. One is to what I call dissect the pose and take it in part so I could do have a complex pose mean like downward dog. It's very complex actually, but if you were take out the parts you think of well what is happening in the arms and shoulders and the upper back and you're like a dog. Maybe I can create that experience for someone sitting in a chair, like you bring a chair facing the wall, you can place your hands up on the wall and have kind of a similar upper body experience found dog, do you know what I'm saying. So you can take it apart. In other way, would just, of course just be creative. Use props, changed the orientation in space of sometimes turning something around and putting it on the ground with that.
Jivana Heyman: And, like standing poses can genuinely be done on the ground, lying down. That's a great way to experience them. Things like that. So yeah, just to kind of come at them from another angle. And, I love creativity because I actually would say that to me spirituality is creativity, but those two the same things and that we're, where we find spirituality in our lives is where we have that creative energy flowing.
Jo Stewart: Yeah. And that's also being present in the moment, and just letting those ideas flow through you and having that connection to that other person and kind of evolving this process together. Like that is a movement. Meditation.
Jivana Heyman: And, I think a lot of teachers, experienced teachers do that anyway. I think this is something that comes through experience. And so, when I did training, I basically designed based on things I thought I had learned over my teaching career that many new teachers weren't being taught. Why do you have to wait and have to teach for 25 years before you learn this?
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: I can just tell you now.
Rane Bowen: Hello Rane here. Just popping back in to talk about our Patrion page. Now what is Patrion, you might be asking, well Patrion is just the way where you can support our podcast from as little as $1 a month. Higher tiers, get benefits, actually shout outs on the podcast or access to extra content. And speaking of which, we've filmed a short bonus video with clear Canadian demonstrating a chair yoga sequence, and that will go up on our Patrion page in about a week. Clare was a guest on the podcast, a few episodes back and she's hosting a chair yoga teacher training at Garden of Yoga, our studio in June. There's just a couple of spots left, so get in quick. I'll leave a link in our show notes for that one. We also have enough funds to transcribe another episode and we'll put that up for a vote on our Patrion page. So, if you'd like to learn more, just go to patrion.com/blowartistspodcast. I'll leave a link in our show notes. All right, let's get back to the conversation with Jivana.
Jo Stewart: And so this next question is from the point of view of a new teacher. So, someone comes into your class with a health issue that you've never heard of. You're completely unfamiliar with it. What are some of the ways that you can assess whether that person will be safe to be in your class? And if you just do not feel equipped to be able to teach them safely? How do you express this skillfully?
Jivana Heyman: Well, that's a great question. I just want to go back for one second and this might help with that question. Just to say the other skill that I want, that I focus on, the training that I think is essential in terms of teaching multiple levels is just that is trying to train teachers to teach multiple levels at the same time to look at the techniques for doing that. So that you can have a student practicing the chair next to someone on the mat. And, I think that there are ways to do it and there are skills, I guess is what I'm saying that make that much easier. And so, that sort of thing we work on in the training and just that idea of multi level classes because I think that's how you bring people together. So, then I am trying to answer your question.
Jivana Heyman: I mean, I think it's a challenging situation that, that question of a student that maybe you don't feel prepared to teach. And I would say that if you don't feel prepared to teach them than you probably shouldn't and you should be honest with them and try to refer them to a teacher you think that would be more suitable for them. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with saying, I don't have the skills needed to serve you. But, I would also encourage that you as the teacher then to really look at what skills do I need to feel more comfortable teaching that person. I think part of the answer has to do with understanding how yoga teaching is different than yoga therapy. And I think there's some confusion there.
Jo Stewart: I've got some perspectives from my own teaching, I saw like some things you've really helped me, it's not always possible but ahead of time. We have an online new client form and so then you at least get a little heads up if someone has a different health condition and you have a chance to look into it and do a bit of research and also you have the chance to get in touch with that person before class, and-
Jivana Heyman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jo Stewart: So that you don't have to say someone just arrives at class. You don't necessarily want to have a long conversation with a lot of other people around you. But if you had the chance to talk to them beforehand, you can kind of check in and find out if they've done yoga before and just what the actual physical sensations of that condition might be, what limitations they might have of their movement, what other issues might come up. And, I've found that, I don't know, sometimes when people first start teaching, they feel like they should know everything. But the more that you actually talk to someone about what is going on for them, because different health conditions can manifest in really different ways for different people, and make learning about that person in particular as part of the process. The more that will just help you in the future.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I again, I think part of has to do with understanding the, when we call it a scope of practice or teacher and not, so in the US, the yoga alliance hasn't had huge scope of practice before, but they're currently creating one. And, I'm so relieved because I think it's going to help this a lot. And it's basically, I actually have seen a draft, they're going to release it any week, any day now, it's coming out. They're releasing a whole bunch of new standards and they're going through a whole standards review process. There's a new code of conduct, which I actually helped work on for them and a scope of practice, which I wasn't involved with, but I saw it. And basically it's just basically saying that yoga teachers are not yoga therapists.
Jo Stewart: Yeah.
Jivana Heyman: And, So with our scope is learning how to adopt practices for people. But that's really all we can do. And I think, and it was a crazy thing in the US, with liability, it's quite extreme here with lawsuits and stuff. So there's actually, I mean, these days I recommend that yoga teachers are very careful about asking about medical information. If they're not, if they don't have a special training or they're not a yoga therapist, it's actually better to not ask. If people tell you, that's fine. But legally speaking, at least in the US, you're more liable, the more you know. So
Rane Bowen: All right.
Jivana Heyman: If you know about someone's condition and then you do something to harm them, you're more responsible.
Jo Stewart: But what if someone comes into your class with vertigo or something and you're just putting them in all of these positions that's making them feel terrible because you haven't asked?
Jivana Heyman: So in that case, ideally the student will tell you if they have some kind of symptom that is going to interfere with their practice and I would hope that someone with vertigo would speak up and say-
Jo Stewart: [inaudible 00:34:30] yeah.
Jivana Heyman: No, I mean, unfortunately you might have to just wait [inaudible 00:34:34]. Because the fact is students don't tell you anyway, even if you do ask. I mean, I know it sounds harsh to say don't ask, but even if you ask, they may not tell you or they may not tell you the truth. I've had many cases where people do not tell me something, I found out later, they had some really severe situation going on that they didn't want to tell me and that's fine. It's private information too. If I'm coming in as a yoga teacher. I'm not a medical professional. I really should not be involved in their medical care. If I'm a yoga therapist. That's the difference. Yoga therapists could find out about that and work with their medical team, and get involved in that and do an intake, formal intake and understand...
Jivana Heyman: Yoga therapy, you should understand what those terms mean. Even a teacher probably wouldn't even know, but I think it's more symptom-based in yoga teaching. So I could, I definitely want to know. I would ask my students to tell me, no, if something's bothering you, come and talk to me and tell me and I'll find another way for you to do it. So, I would hope students who come to me and that way you know like, Oh yeah, I'm having vertigo. Well then definitely don't do any inversions. Keep your head levels, something like that. I don't know. Is it sound? Does that make sense?
Jo Stewart: Yeah, I guess it's just-
Jivana Heyman: It's a complicated topic.
Jo Stewart: It is. It is a really complicated topic, and I think what you're saying as well, part of that is just creating an environment in your class where people feel comfortable to speak up about things and to tell you about what's going on for them and so that you can work together to create a practice that's going to work for them.
Jivana Heyman: Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with the student telling you about their medical issues, but I wouldn't necessarily ask beyond the question such as, how are you doing? I would just say that, how are you doing today? And if I meet someone new, yeah. What's going on? Have you done yoga before and what's your experience? And, then if they're say, well, I have problems here with this shoulder or something, then you'll know that. Or you can see while they're practicing, that's usually what happens anyway, honestly. Is that while students practice and you see someone's not comfortable or they're not doing something and you can maybe then have an exchange with them, try this other way. Or would you like another way to do it? I think that's the only way to go.
Jo Stewart: And so, do you not have like a new client form when people come to your classes?
Jivana Heyman: We only stopped teaching other classes these days. I've been so busy, but I actually stopped anyway even though I am a yoga therapist, but I felt that as a yoga therapist I prefer to teach small groups in one-on-one. And, when I was teaching larger groups, I would just try to have this conversation. And with the way I would say this, is I would say kind of to everyone in the beginning, I want to help you learn how to take care of yourself. That's what we're doing here. So, please come talk to me or get my attention if you need any help with anything. And I'll try to give some, I tried to mention some contraindications, that are commonly known for some practices, and if you're concerned about something you can definitely talk to me. But I kind of put it on them and I just think that's the only way to go is just...
Jivana Heyman: And, then during the class continually help people that this is about wanting to take care of yourself and that pushing too hard for example is not doing yoga. Achieving something external is not what yoga is about. And, I think this is where we get stuck. People have a little bit of confusion about that, right? What is the goal of the class? What is the purpose? I mean maybe it's exercise in some ways and that's great but that's really not what yoga is.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, definitely. Would you like to tell us about your book?
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, I just finished the book, which I'm very excited about and to me it's pretty simple. I tried to offer practices that most people can do. I offered many variations of practices, so the audience is really new. Yoga students who may not think they can practice. Because like I said earlier, I feel like that's the main obstacle is that people just don't think they can do yoga or they can't be a teacher. So, I just tried to offer practices that I feel like are very accessible. A lot of chair work and [inaudible 00:38:26] yoga. And then, I also have a bunch of about up 20 guests contributors who are people I know, mostly yoga teachers who have disabilities themselves ask them to pick a pose and then to say, give me a quote about why they like to practice. And then we got a picture of them doing their version of that pose.
Jivana Heyman: So it might be someone doing diversion of some pose and saying why it works for them, like in a chair or during something against the wall or something. And then, I'll show like a bunch of other variations at that pose. I'm just trying to show diverse bodies as well. And we'll see. It comes out in the fall. I love writing.
Rane Bowen: Yeah.
Jo Stewart: Okay. Fantastic. And so have you noticed that you've driven this as well, that awareness of accessible yoga has evolved over time and I'm wondering what you think the important next steps are Sir?
Jivana Heyman: I think that's a good question. Like I said in the US because of changes happening at Yoga Alliance, I'm hoping I could be wrong because I mean they're far from perfect, but I'm hoping that changes in 200 hour trainings will help to make some of this more mainstream. I think that's what will happen in the future is that accessible yoga would become more just yoga. And there won't be so much of a differentiation anymore. I mean, part of that is probably kind of like a corporate take over kind of thing. What does that call, not take over, but we over there called the [inaudible 00:39:57], there's a word for that. But, like corporation seeing the new thing and they kind of want to embrace that.
Jivana Heyman: And that's a little scary to me. I don't know how to deal with that. But, as long as they allow, this is the challenge, right? The challenge is to keep the voices of community members, people who are doing a work at the forefront rather than allow accessible yoga to just be co opted. I guess that's the word by corporate interests. And really trying to find a balance of working with those corporate interests to changing yoga culture and yet not that, completely co opt the message, and that's the balance that I see trying to find. Does that make sense?
Jo Stewart: Yeah, definitely. It's actually something that yoga journal has been criticized for a couple of times where they'll have something like an issue that's all about body image and then they'll put someone, oh, was there a cover of not long ago where it was like Jessamyn was like on a back cover and then they just had the normal skinny white lady on the front cover and it's like no, that's not representation.
Jivana Heyman: [crosstalk 00:41:01] They split. They did half and half. They put Jessamyn Stanley and half the covers and then Maria is right here who's amazing, very experienced teacher. But they put her on the other half. And yeah, it felt like, exactly that kind of like they want to use the message, they want it to be more inclusive and they... But they don't, they won't, they're not committed to that as an entire way of seeing the world. And, I think that's the real challenge is I don't know if it's an impossible to shift corporate culture to be more inclusive and equitable and less basically white supremacist. I mean, that's the word we're looking at is the whole system that's based on that using anything that the larger culture can kind of takes it in and makes it part of their message, part of their marketing scheme, kind of.
Jivana Heyman: I mean, it sounds so paranoid, but it's kind of true and I think yoga journal did that. But I also know that I've talked to the other yoga journal after that, and there's conflicts there I think within their company. Like different, I think the editor really wants to bring in that voice, but there's competing interests because she's all into a very large company, and I just think that's the challenge, right? How do you handle those conflicting interests that work in the world?
Jo Stewart: And I guess, how do you handle a commercial goal, which is completely separate of a yoga goal. And I guess sometimes they can align if it's all about reaching people and empowering people to use this practice to help themselves, it doesn't mean that someone can't have a sustainable living from delivering that, but often it just doesn't work out that way.
Jivana Heyman: Right. And I mean it's quite amazing if you look at yoga actually, that the amount of money there is in Yoga. I mean, I think it's, their over $30 billion a year. I think now it's probably be more, way more than I would as of like three years ago. So, like multi, multi billion dollar industry and yet most yoga teachers I know are struggling and can barely, could barely make a living even as a full time teacher. And I actually know very few full time teachers when I really look at it. I mean, most people generally have to do a balance of things. They'll do yoga and then do something else. It's very hard to make a living in that. That is just heartbreaking to me that there's all this money there, but it's not going to yoga teachers. I think it's going to the clothing companies.
Rane Bowen: So you're really active on Instagram, which is already a platform that's pretty notorious for celebrating some of the more superficial aspects of yoga, I guess. So how important is it to represent a diverse range of bodies and the ways that yoga can be adapted to be accessible to everyone online?
Jivana Heyman: I mean it's essential. That's why I really want to be on Instagram a lot. Because I just feel like Instagram is lots of visual media and am sure you got these really extreme poses. A lot of... I think people are doing yoga on the beach. I mean I actually, it's funny, I had stopped following on most of those people and the other day I kind of went back and I looked at more like popular yoga science and I was kind of going away but it's still happening. I just had a thought that had gone away just because it's gone out of my mind. Wow. It's still there and they have millions of followers. And some of them are great teachers actually. I mean I know a few of them and I think they really are... Some of those big name yoga people are really trying to make a change.
Jivana Heyman: But I think that's what we need to do is just put bombard social media with other kinds of imagery. That's what I'm trying to do with the book. Actually. The book is just an effort to try and get that out there. Kind of like, I need a book to help me. I don't know why, but these days is so you have to have a book.
Rane Bowen: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jivana Heyman: Because I liked the writing, so that's been fun and I feel like that'll help me just hopefully get images out there that are more diverse because it really pains me to think that people aren't practicing because of the misunderstanding of who can do yoga. It's so sad isn't it? It's so painful to me. I mean I've gained so much and there's so much benefit there. They're really heartbreaking. The thing that people don't do it because they think, oh, I can't touch my toes. I can't do yoga or, I can't stand. I think you're, and you can do it. Anyone can do yoga. You just have to have a teacher who is skilled enough to work with you.
Jo Stewart: And I think as well, just that initial desire and feeling that you will be accepted just walking into that first class. And, I think that's why representation is so important online. Just knowing that yoga is for everybody.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah exactly. I mean I get why people don't come to class. I think that it's intimidating. Even for me, you go to a class, you think people are going to be watching you or judging you. And yet, it's often not the case actually. I mean, if you choose wisely, you can do your research and you can find the yoga studios that are really open minded and inclusive and they're amazing places. I mean, all over the world I've seen the most incredible yoga communities everywhere to do their, you just have to find them. And that's kind of what I'm trying to do, to help people find each other. They're accessible yoga, I'm sure your place must be great.
Jo Stewart: Oh we really, it's our goal. We want to be really welcoming and really inclusive for everyone and just to be a place that everyone feels comfortable that they know there'll be supported and unfortunately, we're not wheelchair accessible where you have some steps. So that is a barrier to people. But beyond that, we really want to do everything that we can to, like share this practice because we love it and it's helped us both in a lot of different ways. And, it's the joy of being a teacher, being able to share these practices and see people kind of blossom in their own yoga practice and hear about how it's helped them in their lives. It's, I don't know, I feel like it's the heart of this practice.
Rane Bowen: And I guess we also try to make sure that your, even the pictures on our website are images of really diverse people, different bodies and different ethnic backgrounds and genders. So yeah, it's-
Jo Stewart: And luckily like that's the people who practice here. We just kind of do free photo day. [crosstalk 00:47:23] And So anyone who wants to kind of be... We do a free class, and we're going to take some pictures for our website, so, it's kind of been like a nice fun community thing for us as well. And when we've been posting about that on Facebook and stuff, like we've mentioned like we want to show different bodies, we want to show different ages. We want to show that this is a practice that everyone.
Jivana Heyman: Well that's right. I think you've hit the main points there, which is the marketing materials, financial accessibility, physical accessibility is good too. But, if you don't have a wheelchair accessible space that might be nice to offer classes outside of the studio as well in other community centers or places near you or, sometimes it's amazing when I see a lot of studios do, where they take money that they make from classes and then use that to pay teachers serving in the community. It's quite amazing what one yoga studio can do actually in a community.
Jo Stewart: That's something that I have been thinking about. Coming back to that question I asked earlier about how to make it sustainable for a teacher and for a studio. Maybe just, having your classes that you do charge a little bit more for so that you can offer a free class or subsidized class or I was even thinking as well if applying like researching and seeing what brands are out there and what other funding is available.
Jivana Heyman: So, I won't say a lot, but a number of big studios that I teach at, and I kind of pick them actually for this reason. There nonprofit, at least in the US or even around the world, it's similar, organizational types of businesses where you're just not for profit. And, then you can get grants and people can make donations to that can be tax deductible. And so some studios, I know they use the money then to pay teachers in the community. Often a studio will have two businesses there. You can have the regular studio and then kind of nonprofit arm where people can make donations, you can get grants and that money can be used for scholarships or pay teachers to go out to the community. So you can have both going actually, at least in the US, I don't know about Australia. I think that's a great way to go. And, I think we'll see more of that. I think we'll see more funding for those kinds of yoga programs. I actually know some that are starting. I think it's pretty exciting.
Rane Bowen: Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you planning to have a conference over in Australia at some point in the future?
Jivana Heyman: Well, we haven't planned a conference yet, although that's probably a good idea. But I'm starting with some training. So I'm currently working on trying to schedule some accessible yoga trainings in Australia in 2020 probably, maybe November, 2020 I'm thinking that's when I'm shooting for right now. I'm trying to figure out where to go. Maybe. I don't know that I could meet people and we could create a conferences. The conferences are actually run by volunteers. Those, we have really small staff, a lot of the on the ground and logistics is organized by local volunteers. And so we moved the conference to places where there's a team. And last year we were in Toronto and then outside of Berlin. And then this spring, at the end of May, we'll be in St Louis, Missouri. And then in October we'll be in New York City, but maybe Australia someday. There's a lot of yoga there.
Jo Stewart: Yeah, we'd love it.
Rane Bowen: Absolutely.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, I've had amazing reaction. I mean, so many people from Australia reached out to me. We have an Australian group, right? Are you on their Facebook group?
Jo Stewart: Oh, I don't think I am actually, [crosstalk 00:50:40] I think I just know you from Instagram, but, I'm really seeking it out. Is that great to open to everyone? Is it a public group?
Jivana Heyman: Yep.
Jo Stewart: Yup.
Jivana Heyman: There are public groups. We have actually 23 public groups through accessible yoga and the main one is accessible yoga community, which people can join that. I mean, I think there's 2,500 people on there and that's a great place to ask questions about bringing yoga to special populations actually. And then we have local groups, like more like Australia Group for example, or actually many of them are by language. So we have 10 language groups like Spanish, French, German, Greek, Dutch, Swedish like that. And then some different regions in the US, Europe, a bunch of teams on different regions and they have their own groups. But, I think Facebook has been a really great format for organizing actually because it's free and accessible. But, please join us.
Jo Stewart: Oh yeah, we'll join. And we'll pop your links up with the episode as well.
Jivana Heyman: Okay.
Jo Stewart: And for your trainings when you have the information for that.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, that'd be great. Where are you actually, I don't even know where you're located.
Jo Stewart: Oh we are in Melbourne.
Jivana Heyman: In Melbourne. Okay. Yeah, still I think I'll be coming to Melbourne. We're looking at a place there. I'm trying to try to where Australia so big to try to come in one trip through reach a few different places. It's kind of challenging, but, I will, it'll happen.
Rane Bowen: We're probably reaching near the end of our conversation, but I did want to ask you, do you think if you could distill everything that you've learned and everything you teach down to one core essence, what do you think that one thing would be?
Jivana Heyman: Wow, that's a hard question. You ask everyone that question.
Rane Bowen: We do.
Jo Stewart: We do.
Jivana Heyman: Oh you do. Well, can I ask you what you would say?
Rane Bowen: Yeah. I have been thinking about this a little bit because, I don't know if you might've seen about the attack that happened in New Zealand.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah. Of course.
Rane Bowen: And, I'm from New Zealand, so, this sort of hit home for me quite a bit, but I think what I'm really leaning towards at the moment is that, love and compassion is so important and that we seem to be going deeper into hate and division at the moment and it's really quite concerning. So, I think we really need to work on that.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah, I agree.
Jo Stewart: To me, yoga is a practice of learning to know ourselves and learning to understand ourselves and learning to have love and compassion for ourselves as well. And I think as a teacher, I want to be able to share this practice in a way that people can connect with and can benefit from and can get what they need from that practice. And also to be able to hone that ability to tune into what is it that I need today from my practice? And then have that time where they can just be present with us. And then when you move back out into the world, it's like you've refilled a little well inside you, and then you have more energy to draw from to do all of the things that you want to do in the world.
Jivana Heyman: That's nice. Wow. Well, I would say, for me, I go back to my main sources for yoga, which is the yoga Sutras or Pecans are they in the Bhagavad Gita? And I think about what, try, I spend a lot of my time thinking about how those two scriptures work together when, I mean there's a lot of other scriptures in yoga, but these are still the main two that we're using in modern yoga. And, I always come to this feeling of the way I said I think in my book was No Calm The Mind Create a Heart, that's what I said, Calm The Mind and Free The Heart. And when I actually mean by that is that, according to the Sutras, yoga is about quieting the mind. And then the outcome is then that the spirit will be revealed. But, I think in the Gita it's offered in this different way, which is almost like God is there in your heart calling to you.
Jivana Heyman: And that the idea of the Gita is actually the song and God, it's actually the song. It's like God is singing to you and calling to you to come back to yourself. And, I think that's what I feel yoga is. It's like the calling to come back to yourself. We get so lost. I mean it's like we were completely externally focused. Most of our lives in yoga is coming back home now to be at peace with yourself. Still to be with yourself and friends with yourself. Sometimes I say yoga is making friends with your own mind.
Jo Stewart: Yeah. Oh that's really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah.
Rane Bowen: Yeah.Oh...
Jivana Heyman: Thank you. Thanks for asking. I can talk about that forever. My favorite topic.
Rane Bowen: Well, thank you so much for speaking with us today. We've learnt so much about accessible yoga and I think we're really looking forward to our hope. We get the chance to meet you at some point soon. So, thanks so much for speaking with us.
Jivana Heyman: Thanks for having me. Well, you're always welcome to come here or come to a conference or else you have to wait until I come.
Jo Stewart: Well, maybe Asia or somewhere in the middle of somewhere between the States Of America.
Jivana Heyman: It's all right. But, I just want to thank you for inviting me and also for the work you're doing. I mean I know this is a lot of work and it's such an important conversation and I know you have some really amazing guests really looking at this area and like I said, this is the way we change, yoga is actually by talking about it in this way and so, you're creating that change by having this podcast, so I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Jo Stewart: Oh, I thank you so much. And like it is fascinating for us. Like hearing different people's stories and different people's approaches. It's like that's why we do this. Like that's what lights us up.
Jivana Heyman: Yeah. I know, me Too. I should probably do a podcast like this one time, but [crosstalk 00:56:41] it's kind of like a [inaudible 00:56:42], I get people to come in first then and then we meet there and I tell that story. It's quite amazing. It's amazing what yoga can do.
Jo Stewart: It really is.
Rane Bowen: So many thanks to Jivana. What an inspiring guy. I think he's doing amazing work and we were very lucky to get the opportunity to speak with him. Now we have another amazing guest coming up on the next episode, Timothy McCall. Now Timothy Literally wrote the book on yoga as medicine, like literally I have it on my bookshelf and he put that knowledge to great use, essential use as he went through his journey with throat cancer. It's all covered in his book, Saving My Neck, which is out now, and we speak about this in our interview and it comes out in about two weeks time or as always, our theme song is Baby Robots by Ghostsoul and Youth With Permission. Get his music from ghostsoul.bandcamp.com. Thank you so, so much for listening. Best 50 episodes down and here is to another 50. Arohanui, big, big, love.