Transcription

Please email us to report any transcription errors

Rane: Hello. My name is Rane and this is the Flow Artists podcast. Together with my co host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. Before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In our latest episode, Jo speaks with Justine Elizabeth, who is a professional hula hooper, yoga teacher, performance coach and founder of the Flow Codes. She has lots of insights to share on the neuroscience of flow states, the benefits of tapping into this state of mind, how it relates to meditation, and how we can apply the concept of flow to our work routine and relationships, as well as our movement practise. Justine also shares simple strategies like using music to shift our mindset, how to navigate stressful or toxic work environments and how to prioritise the things in life that are truly important to to us. It's a great conversation and I think as Flow Artists listeners, this is a theme you'll really enjoy.

Jo: And so, Justine, welcome. Great to talk to you. Would you like to start by just telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up?

Justine: Yeah, so I am a Florida native, but I did leave Florida right after university and moved to California. And I lived out there for a few years and then I was a digital nomad for about seven years before kind of rooting back here in Florida. So I'm now back in my home state, which has been a really nice journey. But that whole kind of around the world journey is actually what really brought me to this realisation of coming back home and kind of taking all the things I learned along the way and wanting to bring them back here. And it was a long journey. So I'll give you the sparks notes version, but I wore a lot of hats along the way and I did study psychology in university, so that was kind of like one of my first passions and I ended up pivoting actually to marketing. And when I went out to California, I was still not sure, like, what I wanted to do with life. I was really more like, I want to experience and learn, like, from the world before I really make those decisions for myself. And went on this journey and found myself kind of straddling two worlds as a digital nomad, this, like, corporate world, as well as this, like, very freeing lifestyle, and kind of saw a lot of different, like, parts of the corporate world and this, like, culture that we had back here in the states that I thought all these things I was learning as I was travelling and experiencing, like, as a yoga teacher, as a flow artist, all of these, like, lessons that I was integrating, I felt like could be brought back to the workplace and the culture back home.

Jo: And so I guess that kind of leads us into your fascination with flow states. Do you want to describe what a flow state is?

Justine: Yes, it definitely does lead into my fascination with flow states. So, as a yogis and flow artists, we hear this word a lot. We hear flow state, or I'm in the flow, and it's kind of an intangible thing to describe. Right. Like, we know when it's happened, but if you had to sit there and quantify it, it can be kind of a difficult thing to actually put into words. And the best way I've kind of come to describe it is, I will say that flow state is where humans are both performing at their best and experiencing the most out of life at the same time. It's kind of the spectrum where we have peak performance on one hand and peak experience on the other hand, but a lot of times we can be in one of these states, but not necessarily the other at the same same time. And flow is really that mirroring of the two.

Jo: I'd added a layer to that as well. It's also when you're just totally in that moment, so you're not thinking about the past, not thinking about the future. You're just completely immersed in the thing that you're doing. And often it's like a brain and body feeling at the same time.

Justine: Yeah, like, superhuman presence is a great way to describe it. You're just very fully aware of everything that's happening and what you're focusing on in that moment.

Jo: And you've kind of mentioned flow art, so people who don't know what that would be like, it encompasses things like hula hooping and I guess like juggling and dance and kind of activities where you're moving your body often to music in rhythm, and sometimes there's another prop involved, and often there's this process of maybe learning a new trick or a new move where it's a lot of thinking, you feel really clumsy with it, but then there's this moment where suddenly you're like, oh, this is just in my body, in my nervous system now. And I can just, like, move and flow through this thing. That used to feel really complicated, but now I'm just naturally letting it all unfold.

Justine: Yes. Yeah. A lot of, I think, flow artists, we've really adopted that term flow, because it's kind of given us these types of dance and these types of movements with props. They kind of paved the way to finding a flow state really naturally. It's kind of built into the process of learning what it means to dance with that prop or in that rhythm. And that kind of leads us to experience the flow state. And there are a lot of things in life that kind of do the same thing, but we have really adopted that term for ourselves.

Jo: And so the man who invented this term and this concept, I believe he's Polish, and he has a very complicated name to say. Would you like to share his name? And what was his definition?

Justine: So, Csikszentmihalyi. He is super fascinating to me, actually. His book is what brought me on this path of actually teaching flow states and helping other people find flow. But he really set out to really understand first what makes people happy. He was really fascinated, he was a psychologist who was really fascinated with what makes humans, who are the happiest humans on earth, what makes them so happy, and how can the rest of us kind of get some of that, you know? And he did a lot of case studies all around the world and found that what they all had in common, these people that were reported as the happiest and, like, highest productivity, like most peak performing humans, what they all had in common was that they were maximising their time spent in this state of flow. And I think the term flow was still kind of used in the context before he came along, but he was the one who really popularised it and really defined it, because once he realised, okay, this is the common denominator underlying all of these individuals, he then kind of pivoted towards how do we define this, and how do we learn how to do more of this? And he set out nine different parameters for what flow state is. And it's still not a clear cut definition. I mean, he gave us literally the rule book, but nine parameters is. You can't really say that easily in one sentence. Right? But basically, the nine parameters outline kind of the prerequisites, the things that we must have in order to achieve a flow state, and then also the results that happen from a flow state. So kind of some of the common ways people will describe it. So some of those being like an altered sense of time, this feeling of, like, complete control over what you're doing, this merging of action and awareness, and then some of those prerequisites being things like having really clear goals. Like, you have to know what you're trying to achieve here. You've got to have immediate feedback. You know, you have to kind of have a. This way of determining, am I successful right now? Am I not having this balance between your skill level and the challenge that you're being presented? These are some of the parameters that he kind of laid out. And with them all, all nine of them, we kind of have this complete frame of reference of how can we achieve a flow state and how can we help ourselves sustain one and not just experience it spontaneously in these activities and hobbies that we might find ourselves gravitating to, but how can we actually almost create these, these flow states for ourselves in other parts of our life that we might not naturally be finding it, or how can we find it with more consistency in those places that we do really want to?

Jo: And I believe that you studied at the flow centre, which is a. Is it a school? Is it a research institute? Would you like to tell me a bit about that time and the kind of stuff that you studied while you were there?

Justine: Yes. So the flow centre is actually in Australia, but I studied during 2020, so I was not actually in Australia, but I did it all virtually. And so for me, being in the United States, there were a lot of really long zoom sessions overnight. So I completely changed my whole sleep schedule for a little over a year and a half through the duration that I was studying with them. But I absolutely, you know, loved what I was studying. I was super passionate about it. So for me, it was like a no brainer. I didn't even really bat an eyelash at the time difference. And of course, it was 2020, so it was a lot more manageable to do something like that when schedules were a lot, lot more flexible. So basically, throughout the training, I was. Well, there was two parts of the training. Part of it is really just learning how to be a coach and how to coach someone. So learning kind of how to uphold the ethics of coaching, because there are a lot of coaches who don't necessarily have that kind of training and can unmindfully, I want to say, do harm in their sessions when they're not really understanding kind of the things they're bringing out of people and having them look at without those tools to help them through it, really. So first part of the sessions was really learning how to be a coach, and that was several months long of really tight knit groups. I think there was six of us only in that first several months of learning the coaching process and getting one on one training with mentors and things like that, then the next part of it is really learning the flow psychology. So learning just the psychology of human performance and motivation and how to regulate your emotions, for example, and kind of getting that more practical flow state toolkit.

Jo: Just completely switching around your sleep schedule. Did it help you get into an altered state as you are learning all of this stuff? It almost seems like in some ways it would make it harder, but in some ways it would really change the whole of that year that you're on this weird nighttime journey with this group of people. And even though you're still living in a different part of the world, your rhythms are completely different to the people living around you. It almost seems like a digital pilgrimage of sorts.

Justine: It really did feel that way. I felt actually, we had a very international group as well. I was the only us person the first time around. During the second portion, when I was doing more of the flow psychology stuff, we actually did have one other californian in the group. So I was like, woohoo. Like, solidarity. We're here late night together, but we had an international group. There's a lot of people from, like, the Netherlands and from Europe and quite a couple, a few Australians as well. So, you know, it was, it was a really interesting group of us from all walks of life, you know, everywhere from like in your twenties to in your forties and fifties, people who had never worked as a coach before to people who had been coaching with sports teams and corporate trainings and things like that for decades. So it was a really diverse group. And I think the switching around the sleep schedule, it definitely did have a role to play in my experience of that. I think there were some days that, like you said, it did pose a challenge where I was, especially in the beginning, I was just like, man, I am so tired. Rolling around. 03:00 04:00 in the morning, I would kind of hit this wall, but I kind of would just get so excited about what I was learning. And it was so like we would break out into groups and kind of have these nice breaks where we were like really hands on. So it wasn't like I was just sitting in a lecture for several hours. I was really getting human interaction through a lot of it, so that helped a lot. But I do think now that I know more about flow states and just the kind of way the brain works and the different wavelengths that you're going through, I do think maybe my brain was slipping into certain wavelengths, like, automatically, and that was kind of helping me embed this learning a little bit faster.

Jo: And so what are some of the activities that we can use to help us kind of get into this flow state of mind?

Justine: Yeah, so I think we're used to seeing flow state of mind happen in these activities that we're drawn to, like our hobbies or sports. And then the other big area that we see it in a lot is work. Work also kind of naturally produces some of these parameters that Jixetme high laid out for us. So naturally, as you do it more often and you become more proficient at it, you're likely to slip into a flow state every so often, mostly spontaneously. But there are different things and different strategies we can use to actually help ourselves get into flow state. And that's part of what I do, is help people and identify what are the things that are going to help them get into flow, and what are the things that are kind of preventing them from getting into flow. But hands down, one of my favourite little, like, kind of hacks that I tell people, and it's not necessarily like the golden ticket or anything, but I really am fascinated by the neuroscience of flow states and just kind of what's going on in the brain. And I really love using, like, functional music to kind of help produce those theta brain wavelengths that we're experiencing in flow state. And then by kind of priming your brain that way for that state, you're almost able to help yourself slip into that flow state a little bit easier if you're in a focused environment, for example. So when I'm doing computer work and I am kind of hitting that wall, I'll put on some functional music and feel myself kind of slip into that focus without even realising it. And boom, before I know it, several minutes, maybe even an hour or two, has gone by.

Jo: Oh, yeah.

Justine: Yeah.

Jo: I find music really powerful with that. Like, I'm writing at the moment and, like, my noise cancelling headphones, and I've went through a whole Spotify journey of different focus mixes to, like, land on the thing that worked for my brain. And at the moment, it's dubbed techno. Like, that's the level of, you know, like, there's enough going on to keep my mind working, and it's kind of uplifting, but also, there's no vocals, so that's not distracting for me, but, like, facey as well. So that that seems to be my sweet spot for writing headspace. So what do you listen to? What's functional music?

Justine: Ooh. Okay, so I am not sponsored, I want to preface this by saying that I'm not sponsored, but I just really love this app that I found. It's called brain FM, or online, you can just type brain FM, and they have these different. Not necessarily playlists, because you don't really see all the songs or anything laid out, but it's more like it's tones and beats kind of playing on a loop, and it'll change and evolve over time. Almost like you're listening to this infinite song and you can set. They have one for focus, one for rest, things like that. So you can set which mood you're kind of looking for and the beats per minute that they're playing and the types of tone that they're playing in that specific mood playlist that you've selected is meant to help your brain reach that different wavelength that it's looking for. And for me, I have found it really works. So I love it and I tell everyone about it, recommend it. I think they have a free trial, last time I looked. So it's like a free seven day trial. So if you're curious to explore the difference between functional music and, like, the focus playlists, you can definitely sign up for the free trial and see whether it's shifts anything for you or what works best for you. But I kind of took that brain FM experience and then I went and I was like, how can I break this down into, like, beats per minute? And I made a little, like, cheat sheet for myself of, like, the beats per minute in a song and the range that normally kind of correlates to what it induces in the brain. And so now I've been playing with, creating my own playlists on Spotify that are like, okay, I can kind of plug in. There's another website called song Finder, or I think it's called song Finder, where you can kind of search what song you're looking for and it'll tell you the beats per minute. So I'm kind of, like, experimenting with that, where I plug in the songs I'm listening to and then I'll add them to, like, okay, this is my beta wavelength playlist, or this is my theta wavelength playlist, and then I'll listen to that when I want to get into that kind of zone.

Jo: And so I'm really curious, like, what BPM is your focus range. Oh, is that like alpha brainwaves?

Justine: Yeah. So the focus range, I usually try and keep it between alpha and theta because that's where the theta wavelength is really where we're slipping into that flow state, but alpha is where we're kind of coming down from this, like, conscious thought that we are normally in. In our waking state and alpha is where we're kind of creating more creativity and focus is kind of the beginning that, like, leads us to the flow state. So I'll kind of play with songs that are inducing the alpha state and then as well as the theta wavelength state. When I'm creating a playlist for focus, kind of wanting to lead me through that journey and almost like, trick my brain into going from one to the other and what.

Jo: What BPM range is that?

Justine: You know what? Let me pull up my little cheat sheet because I don't know off the top of my head the exact number. So I don't want to tell you something wrong, but I have.

Jo: Yeah, yeah, sorry, I just sprung that one on you. I'm just really curious.

Justine: Oh, no, not. No, don't, don't, don't apologise at all. I love sharing it. So let me pull it right up. Let's see, I'm. Here we go. So the beats per minute that you're going to be looking for for the alpha range is going to be between 85 and 120 beats per minute. And then for flow, you're going to slow it down a little bit and you're going to be from 60 to 85.

Jo: Interesting.

Justine: Yeah, yeah, it's super fascinating. Like, the science behind it. And this is kind of, you know, when I look back at my whole journey that we talked about in the beginning, I'm like, man, I was so close when I was studying psychology, was so close to all of this stuff and took me like several years later, but now I've kind of come full circle back around to it and, I.

Jo: Mean, there's definitely flows. Like, some of these are psychedelically enhanced, but say you're in a rave or something where, like, everyone is connected and, like, that would often be that 120 bpm kind of pace.

Justine: Yeah. Which makes sense that it would be in that range of that more creativity and coming into that, you're coming down from the beta wavelength and you're almost priming yourself to enter flow and so could you.

Jo: This is a very out of the brain depths question. Do you think there's a connection to heart rate rhythm and resting heart rate?

Justine: That is a great question. I know there is a link between flow states and heart rate variability. I haven't really explored the link between the beats per minute and the heart rate variability and flow states, but that is definitely something I will take from this conversation and start to look at.

Jo: We've gone into the neuroscience and the brainwaves a little bit while we're in this sciencey realm. You've kind of said, like, the beta brainwaves, that's the lots of stuff going on. Brain going in different directions. Correct me if I'm wrong with these ones. And then the alpha state is more. A good analogy I heard is the beta state is like driving through traffic and responding to lots of things happening at once. And the alpha state is like driving down a highway where you're still present, but you can kind of like settle into it and relax into it a bit more. And you don't have to, like, dart your mind around to lots of different things. Do you want to take it from there through the other brain states?

Justine: Yeah, I love that analogy, actually. Beta, you kind of nailed that. It is like, it's kind of the status quo of when we're awake and that this realm of conscious thought, we are most of the time going to be in beta. And it's like we've got a lot of things kind of happening in our brain. Even when we're like typically, quote unquote focused on something, we've still got, like all these little distractions happening in the background. Alpha, like you said, is we're becoming more focused and we're kind of unleashing a little bit more creativity. And then theta is this experience where we normally only see this happen in deep meditation or when we're having these more deeper insights. And as you mentioned, sometimes we'll see this in psychedelic states as well. Then after that, we sometimes see in the flow state. Very rarely we see gamma, which is going to be when we're experiencing peak flow breakthroughs. And this is really where we're having, like, very novel ideas connecting things in our brain that, like, may not have had a link before. That's kind of what's happening neurologically. And then after our flow state, we're kind of moving into this delta rest and recovery period. And that kind of takes us through the, like, typical flow cycle. And just all of the brainwaves that we typically will experience.

Jo: Would we also typically experience a lot of these brainwaves during sleep?

Justine: Yeah. So delta is going to be one that we normally see during sleep as well as theta and alpha a little bit in the beginning as well. And theta really is, like I said, the deep meditation and insights and sleep is historically the majority of the time that we've actually been able to record chord theta wavelengths occurring in our brain as humans. And the exception really being in flow.

Jo: States and so is that one of the reasons why, if you're not getting enough sleep, a lot of other brain functions suffer. Like, you can't remember things as well, you can't put things together as well. You can't focus as well through the day because your brain hasn't had a chance to go into these, like, more slow brainwave states where all of that deep stuff happens.

Justine: Yeah, I would say that's definitely part of it. And those slower wavelength states are also where we're also having the healing happening in our body. So that's where we're actually recovering, not just mentally, but also very literally and physically recovering. And if we don't get quality sleep, then we're kind of starting our day already very fatigued, and our bodies are kind of worn out still from the previous day. So it's like it's all compacting on top of each other. Cause not only have you not mentally recovered, but now you've also not physically recovered, which is kind of like putting you back a couple steps.

Jo: And that's really tough as well, because I think probably for most of us, one of the main reasons why our sleep would be suffering is if we have a lot of stress through our day. And, like, that's when you need your full pain brain power the most when you're going through those challenging times. And that's also when you're, like, the least likely to be having good sleep.

Justine: Yeah, it's a vicious cycle, isn't it?

Jo: So what are some of the activities that you can do with your clients to kind of. I mean, I guess that would be a good place to start. Say someone is having a very stressful time in their life. Maybe they're not sleeping well, and so they're definitely not feeling like they're at peak brain function through the day. What are some of the ways we could, like, get that back on track?

Justine: Yeah, I. I am a super huge advocate when it comes to sleep for using yoga Nidra. It really plays into this whole conversation that we're having about brainwaves and things like that, because yoga Nidra is kind of doing a similar thing where it's systematically bringing us into that calmer brainwave state. I have experienced exactly this phenomenon you're talking about where, okay, I'm experiencing more stress, and now I have the sleep anxiety, and now it's making my sleep worse. And I, like, just sit here twiddling my thumbs, staring at the ceiling, and then I'm waking up the next day not feeling refreshed at all, and without fail, every time that I throw on a yoga Nidra soundtrack, I will probably nine times out of ten, immediately fall asleep. Once I get to the parts that, for those who don't know, yoga nidra is part progressive muscle relaxation and part, I would say, guided meditation. And once that progressive muscle relaxation portion is over for me, I'm kind of like, I can fall right asleep. So that is one thing that I definitely recommend. People who are struggling with sleep would be to try something like yoga nidra or progressive muscle relaxation on its own, because that is kind of one of those body hacks. One key takeaway that I kind of say throughout all of my teachings or anytime I'm working with someone or even just talking with friends, is the brain. The body and your behaviour are all one interconnected system. And if we're struggling with one aspect of that, we sometimes forget that there are two, at least two other pathways that we can approach it from to try and remedy. It's like if I'm not naturally falling asleep and I'm having this behavioural problem, I can maybe use my brain, I can kind of hack the brain to help myself to induce that behaviour instead of just kind of hoping it will happen the way it normally happens.

Jo: That's a really great strategy because I've experienced this myself and I know other people as well. Say if a lot of your self care, de stress activities involve movement or exercise. And I I had this when I got Covid, so I was like, oh, man, I don't have any energy to do the things that normally help me feel good. And I was also chatting online with a friend who's a psychologist and she had like, a serious injury. And like, same thing. It's like, oh, normally I'd like to yoga. I go for a walk, or I'd swim or I'd hoop or I'd dance. None of those things are possible today. And, I mean, some people as well have got, like, long term energy impairment disabilities, like chronic fatigue or disabilities where it's a lot harder for them to move their bodies. And if that's been a traditional path for you to get to, like, a better state of mind, like, what other strategies do you have to work with some of those other aspects of self?

Justine: Yeah, I have also firsthand experienced this, and it can be really frustrating, especially if you're someone who is used to the movement. And I gravitates towards that. I actually have, like, had experienced problems with my feet that were linked to, like, knee and hip problems before and had to kind of like, really take a break from yoga and from like hula hooping and all of the things that were normally my outlets, and it really threw me for a loop. But I did kind of come back to those strategies that were more stillness based and doing things like yoga, nidra and meditation and writing. Writing became a really big one for me, like free flow writing, almost like morning pages. If anyone is familiar with the artist's way. Those became really great outlets for me, as well as just music in general that just connecting with music, listening to music, creating playlists, and also playing music, learning. You know, I would pick up the guitar and learn different songs and kind of came from a music background as a child. So that that became a really personal, creative outlet for me. And I think it just varies based on the person and based on, you know, what they're dealing with and also what they're naturally gravitating towards. Whether we're going to focus on something that's more like scientifically based and work with something like breath work or with brain wavelengths, and playing with things that we can do with music or different types of meditations and things like that to bring us to a more calm state, or if we're going to do something that's more like artistically expressive and creative and outward movement of energy, but in a different form that might not be as physical as we're used to.

Jo: Hey, it's Jo here. Just popping back in to let you know about a couple of creative and contemplative workshops I have coming up on Saturday, July 20. Two to four p.m. i'm facilitating an introduction to brush and ink workshop with Meah Velik Lord at Green Monday Studios. We've both been Sumi-e painting together for over 35 years with our teacher, Richard Liddicut, who you might remember from a previous podcast episode. Sumi-e painting is imbued with Taoist and Zen philosophies, and it begins with the meditative ritual of mixing the ink. This workshop is aimed at new beginners with no previous art or meditation experience required. All the materials are provided, and you'll leave with a collection of paintings that you can take home with you. Although this art form is just as much about the state of mind that you attain as you practise, you definitely don't have to be a confident painter or artist to experience the benefits of of this beautiful practise and technique. On Sunday, July 21, I'll be joined by Kelly Sullivan here at Garden of Yoga. For our next floating sound session, I'm going to help you get comfortable sitting or lying in the aerial hammock, and Kelly creates a live harmonic soundscape using singing bowls, chimes, drums, gongs and other percussive instruments. It's a really beautiful way to experience sound meditation, as the cocoon of the aerial hammock is so supportive and you can really feel the sound vibrations. Whether you have an established meditation practise or have struggled with meditation in the past and are looking for a new approach that can help make the benefits more accessible, these practises of using sound and brush and ink can open up new ways to connect to peace of mind, stress and enhance your energy and creativity. I love these practises and I'm really looking forward to sharing them with you. So these workshops are in person here in Naam Melbourne, and they're both trauma informed and neurodiversity friendly. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions, and I'll pop the links in our show notes. I've got another when things go awry question for you, because you've mentioned a few times, like work kind of flow states, and what really came to. To mind for me is working in a kitchen, like a busy kitchen, when everything is flowing, like just all these things are happening at once, it's all happening at the right time, it's all flowing and happening. And have you watched the show The Bear?

Justine: I have heard of it, but I actually have not seen it.

Jo: Oh, my gosh, it's so tense and there's so many moments of kitchen chaos and just everything going wrong and everyone's angry at each other. So say you're in one of these, like, group scenarios where. And I could work places often where this would happen and things have got out of alignment, everyone's mad at each other, things are not flowing. Are there any kind of interventions that can help get it all back on track?

Justine: Yeah. So it's funny that you talk about the kitchen and the restaurant environment, because actually my very first experience with flow was in an environment just like this. And it is so true. If anyone has worked in a restaurant, you know, that chaos is inevitable. It will happen at some point. And I think for me, I really, when I'm working with groups, I really try to. I try to help explain flow in between people. Like flow is this thing that can happen very personally. And I think when most of us think of flow states, automatically, we are thinking of the personal journey, but we can have flow in between people, both a couple, as well as a whole entire unit as well. And you kind of just can feel that when it's happening, it's like almost this magical feeling, like everyone's just on it. We just. We don't even have to look at each other. We know exactly what to do. We're all like competent and skilled enough that it's all happening exactly how it's supposed to. But when things go wrong, I really like to advocate, to connect with the people that you're working with. Like, it can be really brief, but just establishing this ritual with each other of just having a connection point, like maybe it's like a 10 seconds of eye contact and just a breath together. If you're in a really busy environment, just kind of this recalibration of, okay, we're here together, we're coming back together, we're getting back on the same page. That is, for me, what's so important in those really high pressure environments? Just knowing, first of all, taking a step to recognise, wait a minute, we're in this chaos, we've kind of lost the plot a little bit. And then second, when you know you've lost the plot, taking just that brief moment together to go, okay, we're coming back, we're on the same page.

Jo: And so another personal example to kind of bring it back to the individual. Something I really notice as a yoga teacher is how important co regulation is and how, because you're the person who is doing more of the talking and kind of facilitating what is going to be happening in the class, how what is happening in your nervous system is going to impact what's happening for other people. And ideally, best case scenario, you have plenty of time to get ready for the class. Maybe you've done your own practise first, you know, you've tidied the space, all of those things, to kind of help you get in the zone. But every now and again say, maybe you have a quick look at your phone and there's a really intense message that completely throws your headspace out. Or maybe you got stuck in traffic on the way to class or something really unexpected happened, so you're a bit rattled and people are just about to walk in the door. Do you have any techniques that are your go to and you've got to really got to shift your own state of mind?

Justine: Yes. So two things I want to mention. First, one is I do have, and I advocate that if you are trying to attain any flow state in any environment, having kind of a pre ritual for yourself, and I take people through at least, like I say, three minutes is usually the, what I will use for that pre ritual, and in that three minutes, I try to hit a 1 minute of something mental, 1 minute of something energetic, and 1 minute of something physical. So for myself, that can look like, all right, right before I'm gonna, you know, if I'm performing on stage and, like, my nerves are a bundle or something like that, right before I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna, like, do a handstand for 1 minute to, like, just reset my body, do something physical, you know, and then I'm gonna, like, do a little bit of deep breathing exercises to kind of recenter myself. And I'm going to close my eyes, and I'm going to energetically envision this performance that I'm about to go do, and I'm going to envision myself enjoying it and smiling through it. And that, I think, is the key for me. So having that pre ritual is one of the strategies that I use to kind of just set the tone. But if there's something that comes up that's like a text message that rattles you or something like that, you know, something really last minute that, you know, you've kind of done all your prep work and then something unexpected happens, like life just throws these curveballs sometimes. The thing that I try to remember is any type of emotional regulation that you feel is comfortable and works for you is going to be great. And for me, I do this three part strategy. I call it the triple A approach. So first thing is just acknowledging, okay, I am rattled or I am angry or whatever my emotion is. And then the next step is I'm going to ask myself, as the next a is, ask myself, okay, where is this coming from? You know, sometimes it's really clear if it's a text message or something like that, but if I'm just, you know, walking up to something and I all of a sudden start to feel these emotions, maybe I need to ask myself, where is this coming from for a moment and just identify the source of this really specific emotion. And then the last thing, now that I've kind of put the light on it and really shined the spotlight on it, the next thing that I'm going to do, the final a in my process is going to be either accept or act. So in this really quick span, I'm doing a lot of things, but I'm really precisely labelling this emotion, getting clear about its source. And then if there's something I can do about it in that moment, then knowing where it's coming from is kind of going to inform my next step. So, for example, if I'm teaching a yoga class and something has rattled me, like you've said, I may not get to the perfect state of mind and being in the timeframe I have for this, preparing for this class, but I can definitely, with my toolkit, be like, okay, well, I can get a couple degrees closer. I don't have to go in with exactly this rattled energy. I can, at least now that I've acknowledged this, asked myself, what's going on here, I can now act on that and get myself a little bit more centred than I was before.

Jo: And the advantage that we have as yoga teachers as well is we can use the first part of the class for our own wellbeing as well. So if you have some centering practises that work for you that take a little bit more time, whether it's a sequence of movements or a specific pranayama practise, you can do that with the group and everyone can do that centering practise together. And I think it's okay as well to say I really need this today. So we're all going to start with the centering practise together.

Justine: Yeah, definitely. I think. I mean, leading the yoga class authentically is where the magic happens, at least in my opinion. So if you have to, you know, take that toolkit and share it with everyone, I mean, you never know. You know, I like to think the universe works in mysterious ways. And sometimes maybe experiencing that before a class and then, you know, bringing that tool to the beginning of your class and sharing it with everyone, maybe somebody else walking into class really needed that that day.

Jo: And, I mean, especially over the past few years as well, there have been a lot of global effects, events that have had a very intense effect on all of our state of minds, all of our nervous systems. And with everything going on in the world, some days it's not realistic that people are going to be walking in class relaxed, because that's just not what's happening in our universe right now.

Justine: Definitely. Yeah. I think that just in a general scope, we are at this, like, unprecedented time in history where we're constantly bombarded with so much information and so much of it is not good information. And I don't think we really realise yet what that's doing to our nervous systems and to our bodies.

Jo: Yeah. And it's not about trying to take ourselves out of that reality. It's more just kind of equipping ourselves with these tools so that we can respond in a way that's compassionate and so that we can have energy to get through our days, to not be in this heightened state of emergency all the time, because that doesn't help us make good decisions.

Justine: Yeah. Being in fight or flight is definitely going to impact both yourself and all of the people around you. It's going to impact all of your close relationships, it's going to impact how you show up at work, how you show up in your social circles. It's much more helpful for both yourself and for the world that you're creating around you to help yourself get back into that more rested and recovered state. I think that when we're in that state, we can, like you said, respond a lot more. We can respond a lot better to the things that we're presented with and just kind of come at it with less of that panic and more of, like, that proactivity.

Jo: And I think, as well, like this, there's an interesting thing that I've observed in myself and in other people that I know as well. If there's something huge happening in the world that is out of your control, how sometimes that can manifest into trying to control the people around you and trying to control their responses or trying to control what they do, and that is sometimes helpful in some ways, but often not and often unconscious. Like, is this something that you've noticed as well?

Justine: Yeah, I think it's a natural defence mechanism. I definitely saw that in some of my family dynamics growing up. It's. I think when you. When some people feel the world is falling apart around them, the natural thing is to try and latch on to whatever things that they can control. And that's just our brain kind of trying to, you know, break the pattern. You know, I think that when we're going through a trauma, we are constantly. Our brain constantly wants to repeat that trauma afterwards to try and convince ourselves that things have gone differently, you know, that we've got control over it now and that things are better. And see, we broke the pattern. You know, that's kind of the brain. When it's not, you know, mindfully being operated, it'll kind of naturally do that. And that's just what happens. And I don't think we realise that the amount of, you know, trauma that we witness on social media and on a global scale, day to day, and just the world that we live in and the corruption that we face it is a trauma state. It is something that's traumatising us. And we don't necessarily always remember that because it's become so normalised and just becomes so much a part of our day to day and what we even expect in our day to day. So I think that naturally our brains are going, okay, well, we can't control this, but we're going to repeat this pattern and try and break it and see that we've got control over here instead. And it's. It's an unfortunate part of the brain's natural state of operation that that's how things work. But the good news is that we do have the ability to exercise some influence over that and to step back mindfully and to analyse what the brain's doing and to kind of gain a little bit more conscious control over. Over what we do.

Jo: I think as well, it can be really helpful to take action personally. So whether it's like calling your representative or signing a petition or going to a protest or supporting a business run by a member of a community that's been impacted, I think to shift it into what can I personally do here and now that is within my sphere of influence versus trying to control how other people are responding to this can be a helpful. I found that a helpful reset for me.

Justine: Yes.

Jo: And also sometimes just spending less time on the Internet.

Justine: Yes. Having a little social media detox is definitely underrated, but I think to having some personal measure of accountability. You know, if something is severely upsetting and traumatising to you, like, if you're watching the news and you're feeling like this is the weight of the world for this particular situation, then it can be so easy to feel like you're just a drop in the bucket and feel like things are helpless. But we do have to kind of narrow our focus a little bit into, you know, remembering that we may be, you know, one part of the wave, but together we're the ocean. You know, like, we are still part of this vast ocean. And it does make a difference, at least in our small communities. And that's what ripples out and out and outward. So focusing on what we do have conscious control over and taking that proactive action, you know, to support this family or to go to this rally or to, you know, just take action in that meaningful way that speaks to your core values and how you want to show up in the world, I think that is going to kind of help, you know, sway that emotional overload that we're feeling a lot more than arguing with family members or, you know, getting into political debates online and things like that.

Jo: And this actually really brings me to something that I think about a lot. And I've noticed that on your website and your social media as well. Like, you're very against, like, hustle culture and grind culture. And we're just talking now about a really expansive, how can we make things better for all humans? How can we tap into our higher selves? Is what would be a yoga understanding of it, or if we're thinking at our best, acting as our best, we're in this state of mind where maybe we can get out of our everyday paradigm of thought and really take some self transformative action, or even action that can have an impact on people around us. So that would be one of these uses of these flow state thinking. Yet often I see it as being about productivity. And I actually find it really depressing because it's like, oh, here's how we can really use all of our creativity and energy just to be a better capitalist and to make more money for a corporation. And I see it with mindfulness as well. It's like, yes, it can help you at work, it can help you manage your stress, it can help you kind of think more deeply and more creatively. But mindfulness is not about being a better little worker. So I'd love to know your thoughts about this dichotomy.

Justine: Yeah, I actually have turned a lot of focus onto exactly this in the last year or so because kind of like we talked about to bring it full circle. Coming home from, like, several years of travelling, it was a bit of a culture shock. And even the whole time I was travelling, I was still kind of straddling this world of working in marketing and working this corporate, like, job and having that freeing lifestyle and coming home and seeing just how many people I knew that were, you know, really dreading going to work and dealing with work all of the time. It was such a, like, shock to the system almost. And I kind of sat back and I thought to myself, like, something is so wrong here in this system that we've, like, created. And again, it's become so normalised. But I think that there's no, for me, at least, I think I approach it from this sense of you, you know, I don't think that there's one way or the other. Like, I don't think that the system is right, but I also don't think that the self can always be right, you know? So I kind of came to it with this idea of, like, how can we meet the needs of both and kind of come to the middle a little bit. So I do think that, you know, flow states are so much more than just productivity. I think that at work they can make you more productive and help you enjoy your work a lot more. But I think that they can do that to help you free up so much of the rest of your, you know, time and space so that you can enjoy more out of life and have more of that work life balance. And I really try and address both the system and the self in any type of training that I do because it's both. And anytime I meet with, like, a business, if I'm working with a team or doing, you know, coaching for a corporate business or anything like that, one of the first conversations we'll have is, you know, there are going to be three parts to this training. One is going to show people how to reach flow individually. Two is going to show people how to reach flow in the team and be more productive and more connected as a team. But three is learning how to create a workplace that is supporting these and how to, like, identify values in the workplace that are actually going to truly be beneficial to your employees. Like, really, how are we, how are we defining corporate culture right now? So it's a bit of unlearning and learning that needs to happen for different businesses depending on the business. You know, some. Some are a lot more open to those things than others. But for the ones that I work with, I feel like most of them have been really open to it. And luckily, I've been able to work with people who really want the. The benefit of their employees at the end of the day and don't want, you know, I think the big thing, the big takeaway, I hope for anyone listening who's a CEO or an owner is, do you want employees that are coming to work and dreading work and unhappy? Because truthfully, that's just going to hurt the business in the long term, right? Like, if we have happy employees, that's good for everyone. So I think that flow is one way we can kind of help with that situation, but it is definitely a balance that needs to happen. Flow shouldn't just be used for the productivity and for these, like, hustle states. You know, it can really help with those hustle states and reaching those peak performances. But for why are we doing this is the really, really important question underneath. And part of that work is going to be identifying each individual's core values, like, what is really important to them? Who is the person they want to be at the end of the day, and what do they want to spend their time doing in a perfect world if they didn't have to go to work, what are the things that are important to them? And how can we use that extra time and space that we're creating to do that more and to find more meaning and richness out of our lives?

Jo: And I fully acknowledge as well that like, I have a really privileged position where I do really love what I do. And I know that for everyone, like sometimes work is just going to be work. Like, it's not where you're going to find your soul and that's something that you're going to do out of hours once you've earned the money that you need to do to live your life. Say you've got into this pattern of like stressful stuff is happening at work. What are some ways that we can shift gear when you leave work so that you can have that time for yourself for the rest of your life and so that your work stress doesn't become a 24 hours a day thing?

Justine: Oh, yeah. Well, depending on your work, the answer is going to change. Because I know right now a lot of people who work in the corporate space, especially in marketing, which is the field that I come from, there is really not a lot of work life boundary happening. Like we are so ultra connected on our phones and our devices all the time that it's really a blurred line. So the first thing I'm going to say is boundary work. Like as an individual, you really, in this world, you really do have to get really clear about what your boundaries are and identify those. And I become an advocate for them. And that means, you know, figuring out when does work end for you? When you walk in the door? Is it when you turn the phone off? Like when am I turning my, when am I clocking out truly for the day? And so for me, it's like, I know I have been in workplaces where we have, you know, text messages or chains on telegram or slack or things like that. I am, like, I'm signing out when I'm clocked out and I am not touching this until I'm clocked back in. And that is a personal boundary of mine. And you unfortunately have to be your advocate for that. No one else is going to keep you accountable to that. It's going to benefit the business if you're not staying accountable to that. So number one is probably doing some boundary work there, figuring out where that boundary is and how you can stay loyal to yourself by upholding it. And then number two is figuring out what kind of emotional resets work for you. So if you have a really high stress job, if you're a doctor, you know, if you are a psychologist, if you, even if you're in marketing, any kind of high pressure job, working as a bartender, anything like this, you're coming home with that energy, and you're carrying that energy with you through the day. It's going to be really beneficial to exercise some kind of emotional reset where you're, like, almost somatically, okay, this is not my energy anymore. I am releasing this, and now I'm stepping into my own energy. And it can be only a minute long, you know, right before you open your door. Or it can be something if you're taking public transport. Like, I know when I was a bartender and I would take the bus home, that bus home was almost like my catharsis. So it was like my release. I would just kind of cleanse my, envision myself, like, cleansing all this stuff that I just, I just went through at work. I'm taking it all off, I'm washing it all off of myself while I'm on this bus ride. And now when I come home, I'm like, I'm fresh, I'm new again. So something like this, some kind of somatic exercise or emotional reset that's kind of just going to let you refresh and come into your space with only your energy. And not all of the things have been placed on you in the workplace place.

Jo: I know some people find having a shower really helpful with that as well. And some people I know, like, I've been trying to do this more, but I'm a real wimp about it, especially working with temperature. So, like, having a hot shower and then finishing on cold can be a good nervous system reset.

Justine: Yes, exactly. I love the cold shower. I love the wim Hof method. So I've become a huge fan of the cold temperature reset as well because it is very effective and very fast.

Jo: Yeah, I can only do it at the pool. So I've been, like, waking up, I can do, like, ten minutes in the sauna, and then I can have, like, a cold shower at the pool. But I can't bring myself to do it at home when my shower is all, like, nice and warm to, like, wreck it with the cold bit.

Justine: Yeah, I, you know, I learned that I had to. I was very, very averse to the cold temperature. You know, for years, if you had told me five years ago that I was going to be someone who enjoyed a cold shower, I would have laughed in your face because I was a hot shower girly forever, but, and I still love my hot shower every so often, you know, but I had to really gradually take myself there. So I had to start with, like, 10 seconds of cold water and then take my hot shower, and then I would start with. Or actually, I think what I did was I started with the hot shower first, and then I would end with, like, the few seconds of cold shower, and then I would just gradually kind of build on that time where I'm making the cold bit longer and then kind of started sandwiching also. All right, now I'm going to start with a little bit of cold, like, 10 seconds of cold, and then go back to my hot temperature and then go back to the, like, couple minutes of cold at the end. So just I had to kind of gradually take myself there because it was such a, like, shocked myself, and I had to overcome both the physical part of it and the mental part of it.

Jo: And that's why it helps, right? Yeah, because it kind of recalibrates for your brain and your body what stress is.

Justine: Yes. I mean, there's the biological part of why it works, improving your cardiovascular health and having that nervous system reset and that shock to the body. But then there's also the. For me, I think there's this energetic part of it that it's like you're almost building trust with yourself. I call it dosing discomfort, and I've heard this term in other spheres before, but microdosing discomfort. Right. Like, we can do hard things. And I have kind of tried to make that a habit of, like, when I see something that I. My brain goes, oh, my God, that's so hard. I suddenly go, I guess I need to do that because I think that dosing discomfort is so important for building this trust with yourself and, like, learning that you can do these hard things and rewiring your brain to, like, really believe in yourself. So, you know, silent meditation was like that for me as well. When I first started it, when I did my yoga teacher training, my first one in 2018, the training I did, they allowed you to do a silent meditation retreat afterwards for free for eight days. And to me, at the time, this was the most terrifying thing. Me be silent for eight days and meditate for, like, 9 hours a day. That was crazy to me. But when I did it, and it was really hard, but when I finished, I really loved it so much that I actually went back the following year. And the only reason I didn't go back again after that was because of COVID But now I love doing silent meditation and, like, working that into my year if I can do, like, a longer space of that. And that was my. Probably my first real dose of discomfort. And now cold showers is kind of the continuation of that journey.

Jo: I love it. So say we've got people listening who maybe haven't found that thing for them, like something that can help get them into the flow state or something that can help to shift gears. If you feel like you're in a really negative headspace, in a really negative state of mind, and it's just going around in circles, what advice do you have for listeners who might have a hard time finding that flow state? What are some activities that they can try as soon as they finish listening to this?

Justine: Yeah, so I think the number one thing that I would suggest is try to recall the things that you loved as a kid. This was one thing that really helped me when I started on my own flow journey. I had kind of gotten to a point where I really had lost my own plot, and I felt like I'm sick all the time. I'm burnt out. I don't know, like, why I'm even doing any of this. I feel like my life has lost its meaning. And the first thing I did was I sat down and I made a list, and I was like, these are all the things that I really enjoy doing. And I also, on that list, started to tack on things that I had always had this, like, curiosity or pull towards, but was never, like, a part of. You know, like, for me, I would watch, like, an ice skater and be, like, mesmerised. And I was like, oh, my God. Wish I could do that. I, like, just felt this pull towards it for some reason. So I wrote on the list, ice skating at the end, I just had this list of things that were so truly passions of mine, even if I had never done them before. And I think that is the number one piece of advice. If you haven't found that activity that calls to you yet, start by just making the list of things that maybe you've watched other people and felt mesmerised, or like, maybe you dabbled in things when you were a kid that you found so intrinsically rewarding and just doing some of that little bit of reflection work and writing that down and then looking at that and just start to experiment. Just start to, like, maybe an hour a week at first, you know, just start to sample each of those things and just play around with them. And then my other piece of advice, too, would be to just know that coming back to that same phrase that I kind of said somewhere else in this podcast is because the brain, the body and the behaviour are all this interconnected system and finding that actual flow state, it's going to take time and persistence. There's always going to be this phase where you don't have that skill built up yet enough to really break into the flow state when you're a beginner at something, but it doesn't mean you're bad at it, it just means you're a beginner. And if you're in that struggle phase for what feels like a long time, just know that. Remember you have other pathways you can work with to get there instead of just hoping that training in a certain way will result in it. You know, you can play with the brain wavelength states and you can play with different pathways to maybe see if that helps you slip into a state that feels more like you're in the zone than just like, trying to break through whatever way that you've been trying and it hasn't worked yet.

Jo: I love that, and I love a list as well. Like, a list is a really good tool if you're feeling overwhelmed and there's just like a lot of thoughts going around in your mind, just like, write them all down and then like, put easy things on there that you can cross off right away. Like, you might put, like, made the list. Cross that off. I just made the list.

Justine: Yes. Yeah, I know the list. Honestly, it changed my whole life. Like, I, it sounds like so cliche to say that, but it really did, because I'll tell you that the top two things on the list for me were yoga and hula hooping. And at that point in my life, I was not a yoga teacher. I had probably only taken a handful of yoga classes and I had this, like, connection with the hula hoop that it had been prevalent in my life several times, but I had never, like, actually learned how to hoop dance or anything like that. And looking at that list, those were like the top two things that stood out to me. And I said, okay, from now on, I don't care if I'm tired, I don't care if I'm, if I've worked a full shift, I don't care if, like, whatever excuse, I'm going to make sure that at least once a week I'm doing these activities. And I started to build my life around that and my whole life shifted. You know, I stopped hanging out at the bar with people who I wasn't aligned with all the time. I stopped, like, spending money on things that I didn't care about. I really started to prioritise things that actually meant something to me. And eventually that led to becoming a yoga teacher and becoming a performing circus artist and connecting with, like, other hoopers from around the world that became lifelong friends. And it all just like, the dominoes fell. I can follow it all the way back to that list. So I can't underestimate the power of just creating a list that really speaks to just the things that you love doing and hanging that somewhere you can see it, maybe, and just reminding yourself, have I done anything that I loved this week or today?

Jo: You know, and, like, if you're more of a visual person as well, like, just over here on the cupboard, like, we've got a very, like. It's like a mood board or a dream board. So it's got pictures as well as words, which can be inspiring as well, especially if you're going to put it up in your house.

Justine: Yes. Yeah, a mood board. I love that. When I was travelling, I didn't have like a, you know, a board or a space I could use, so I. I put a bunch, I cut a bunch of pictures, printed them out, cut them up, and I pasted them on my journal. And that was, like, my mood board. And it was all things that, the same things that came from the list. I kind of actually pulled the mood board from the list. It was like pictures of yoga, pictures of hula hooping, things like that. And it was the front of my journal and it helped me really visualise it on an energetic level. You know, every day I would write in this journal and I would see and have this reminder of the things that were important to me. And, you know, for so long before I had made this list in this journal and all of that, I had hula hoops, I had a yoga mat, but they lived in the back of my closet and I never saw them and never was reminded of them except once in a very blue moon. So really putting it somewhere that was present with me and that I would see every day was very important as well. It was a natural reminder kind of built into my day. And then suddenly I'm thinking about it more, and the more I think about it, the more likely I'm going to actually take the action.

Jo: Yeah, I love that. And that reminded me another thing that helps me as well, which it's not always possible, depending on your living situation, but to make physical space for the thing that you want to do. So rather than having to, like, pull your yoga mat out and then move your couch and then move your coffee table to set your mat up, arrange things so that there is space for yoga all the time and so that when you walk past, you'll see it and like, maybe your mat's there so you can just, you know, get onto it and like, just kind of remove a couple of barriers between you and doing that thing. And so for me, changing my physical space can be really helpful with that.

Justine: Yes. Making it, like, really obvious in your environment and giving it that dedicated space is almost also like a practise of like, showing, validating for yourself. Like, this is important to me. You know, it's important enough that I'm creating space for it both energetically and literally in my environment.

Jo: And that, like, what can be helpful with that as well? If you're like, okay, well, if I need to make space for this, what can I declutter? Like, what can I get rid of that's in my environment now? That's like getting in the way of that.

Justine: Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like that. The story I just told about, you know, the bartending and that life that I lived, it naturally decluttered some of that from. For me as well.

Jo: Sometimes it's people.

Justine: No. And I still love all those people and those individuals, but it is like, you know, for me, being in that environment was not what was aligned for me and I didn't really want to be doing that, but I was just kind of living on autopilot. And that was what was making me so upset with my life. So for me, it was just not aligned.

Jo: So I have one last question for you, and it's a big one, and it's a surprise one. If you could distil everything that you've learned and everything that you share down to one core essence, what do you think that would be?

Justine: Ooh. I mean, it's tempting to just say flow, but it's so intangible. So I really think if I had to distil it to one phrase, I'd say mind body connection. I think at the heart of everything, that's what it is. It's the integration of mind and body. It's the integration of action and awareness. Just. Yeah, I guess maybe it's integration.

Jo: Beautiful. Thanks so much, Justine. Thanks so much for everything you shared. I feel really inspired to flow into my day from here.

Justine: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Jo. This was such a wonderful conversation and I'm just so grateful to be here today.

Rane: We hope you enjoyed hearing from Justine. We've put all of her social media mailing list and website links in our show notes on our website podcast.flowartist.com. if you'd like to learn more. And again, a quick reminder that we'd love it if you could write us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or leave us some stars on Spotify. This is a great way to help others find the podcast and show your support. We also love hearing from our listeners and finding out what you enjoy about the podcast. We really appreciate it when you share our posts about each episode or leave us a comment online. Find us at the Flow Artist podcast Facebook page or look for Rane Loves Yoga or Garden of Yoga on Instagram. Were a DIY operation and your community support really helps. Special thanks to our Patreon supporters. Your donations help us cover editing and hosting costs and we appreciate you so, so much. You can even join our Patreon for free now to get the latest updates. So just go to patreon.com/flowartistspodcast. You also get access to great bonus content. Justine has generously shared her flow cycle, brainwaves, activity video and its accompanying worksheet with our Patreon supporters. This month, we'd like to express our gratitude to Ghostsoul for granting us permission to use their track baby robots as our theme song. Be sure to cheque out Ghostsoul dot bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express you big, big love.