Transcription

Please email us to report any transcription errors

Rane: Hello, my name is Rane and this is the Flow Artist podcast. Together with my co host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. Before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders by both past and present and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode, Jo is speaking to Kate Payne, host of the Holistic Woman podcast. Kate is a mother of two, a women's health yoga therapist, teacher, trainer and mentor. Over the past two decades she's immersed herself in the field of women's health and wellness, using yoga as a guiding philosophy for life. Kate empowers women to nurture whole body health through education on a woman's life cycle and the interconnectedness of mind and body. Kate's commitment to women's health extends beyond individual practise. She's passionate about empowering teachers and practitioners to share yoga therapeutically within their community to impact social change. Throughout all of her different professional roles, Kate shares a rich understanding of yoga encompassing both physical and emotional well being and seeks to create a ripple effect of positive change, fostering a community of practitioners dedicated to the well being of women. Jo had lots of questions about how this could be applied in both the professional and personal lives of other yoga teachers and small business owners. And Kate had some wonderful insights to share. We really hope you enjoy their conversation.

Jo: Hello Kate, so lovely to see you online today. Would you maybe like to start by telling us a bit about your background and also how you discovered yoga?

Kate: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me Jo. Wow. It. My background is very diverse as we were just speaking about before we came onto the to the recording. So I found yoga when I was 21 in the sense of the asana practise. So prior to that I had been doing meditation practise from about the age of 16. I had a lot of anxiety and feeling uneasy through school and so had this really phenomenal meditation teacher. So that was kind of my first forte into the practise and then post that it was. Yeah, when I was 21 I attended. I think it was probably one of your classes actually. I think we spoke about this on my podcast where it was in a gym in Port Melbourne and I came along and I didn't really know what to expect. I'd come back from Thailand about a year prior to that with a Parasite. And I'd been really, really unwell and the doctor had suggested, you know, some really gentle kind of movement could be nice. Have you contemplated doing a yoga class? And so I found one and came along and from then I was like, wow, this is amazing, like I need to be, I need to be doing this. And so kind of eventually then ended up in a, in a studio setting and practising for, yeah, quite a while before I thought about doing a teacher training and did that teacher training, knowing then that I did want to teach, I did want to teach yoga. I was walking, working in corporate marketing and PR at the time and it was such a nice break from that after work to go into the studio space to be either a student in a class or to teach teacher class. It just felt like this beautiful, you know, extension of life, I suppose. And so, yeah, it just kind of cascaded from there into now close to 20. It is, it is actually just ticked over 20 years of practise, 25 if you add in the meditation piece at the very beginning. And then over 10 years of teaching. And so gradually did some more teacher trainings. And then my husband works in allied health and so I saw a real need then to explore how yoga could be used in a more therapeutic setting with his patients. And so decided then to study yoga therapy and dedicated myself to a couple of years of study in that. And then in the last few years have started running my own with a colleague of mine who's also a yoga therapist, running women's health yoga teacher training, specifically with that therapeutic lens in mind. So it's, yeah, it's been a long, it's been a long journey, but I see it, you know, being with me forever until, you know, until death.

Jo: Beautiful. And I actually love like just hearing about your journey, how you started out in marketing and then yoga fulfilled this other part of your soul or your identity. And it seems like a lot of what you do now is still very much about education and communication. So it's like now, I don't know, you're weaving together all of those skills and all of those ways of expressing yourself.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: And I saw that you've got a new substack now as well as your podcast. Do you want to tell us a bit about that project?

Kate: Yeah. So the Holistic Woman Media is really an extension of the podcast, so it's an opportunity to have conversations and share information and education around women's health and well being through the lens of yoga. And so the podcast is a, is a key part of that but it's just a way of amplifying women's voices and amplifying women's voices in a way that we don't often see in the, in the yoga and wellness space. We tend to see a very particular type of yoga teacher on social media, in magazines. It's a very particular type of person. And so holistic woman media is about actually bringing voice to the many women who are doing really fantastic work in this field. And so the podcast is, is a huge part of that and it will just grow and evolve from there.

Jo: Yeah, I think it's like really important what you're saying, because there's so much like male bias in the medical world. And I think as women or non binary people or trans people, it's, you're already kind of up against a educational system that then flows into a professional practise that's not about your needs, like, it's very much about male needs. And so to come into that with as much information as you can about your own health and your own well being. And like a lot of reproductive health conditions, like, have a really nebulous set of symptoms which can sometimes be dismissed or can sometimes be like the same symptoms could apply to multiple different conditions. So to be able to kind of read those individual stories and kind of learn from other people who have a lived experience of maybe something that you're wondering about is showing up in your body, like, I think it just really helps you feel empowered to go back to the conventional biomedical world, like with a bit of, I don't know, it's like they're not in the room with you, but knowing that other people have gone through something similar, I think it's just really helpful to know you're not alone if you're up against those kind of health issues.

Kate: Absolutely. And it's, it's redefining what healthcare looks like for women, because we really have been sold this one size fits all approach to women's health and wellbeing. And when we look at women's health through the lens of yoga, we're looking at it as individual. So what is the individual woman experiencing? What are her individual symptoms and how do they flow out of other aspects of her life that are also very individual and unique to her as a woman? And so how can we empower women to have that knowledge of how they move through the world and how their body feels under different stresses and circumstances so that they can then, like you say, they can arrive in those medical settings with more knowledge about what they're Feeling and hopefully with some more education around the types of questions to keep asking to make sure that they can know that they get the right outcome for them.

Jo: I think coming in armed with those questions is really key because sometimes once you get in the room, it's like you don't remember everything that you wanted to ask about in that 15 minute appointment. And so if you've got a list, I feel like that helps me feel like really prepared for those kind of situations, especially if you're like maybe seeing a specialist about a surgery or something. Like it can take months to get that appointment and then you have such a short time with that person. And I've definitely had experiences and this was with Ron, who's a man of like my question being talked over before I got to finish asking it.

Kate: Yes. I don't think you have to be male, female, it doesn't matter. I think we've all experienced that in the medical field at some point in time. And so I think irrespective of whether you're a woman or not, it, it's important that you feel empowered in those medical settings.

Jo: Yeah, I just, I keep detouring here, but I just had another experience with actually a student of mine who had initial consult with one specialist and she really didn't like his approach or his manner. And so even just like getting second and third opinions, if you're up against that and you feel like someone's not prepared to listen to you or take time to hear your needs, like that is also something powerful that we can do, which is obviously more available when you have more money and more options. But even in the public system you can still get a second opinion. It might just take longer.

Kate: Absolutely. In this country, definitely our public system is actually really fantastic. So we can definitely. Yeah, get, get. We can still absolutely achieve the outcomes that we desire through the public system here as well.

Jo: And so to circle back to your yoga practise, I know that you're like, you're doing a lot of things as a parent and working full time and also doing all of your media in the yoga world and preparing for trainings and everything, but what does your own yoga practise look like these days?

Kate: Such a great question. I was chatting to a friend of mine recently about this who works in women's pelvic health and she's, she's of a similar age to me. We both have young children and we were talking about how our practise has evolved and changed. Changed to really meet the need of the hour. And that's something that I'm a huge advocate for, irrespective of whether you've got children or not, that as a woman you're really honouring the season that you're in. So if that's the season of, you know, being in your early 20s and having high disposable income and being able to, you know, travel the world, then you're really honouring your needs and maybe that's going to lots of yoga classes in a studio setting and meeting and being in community and then, you know, for a woman who's perhaps then got young children like myself, the yoga practise looks really different because it's honouring the season that I'm in as mother. And that looks predominantly like a lot of philosophical contemplation, moments of meditation, zero studio classes, you know, home yoga mat, rolled out, a few, few yin poses before bed and really just living the teachings of yoga a lot more than anything that you would be able to see visually as practise. And I think that's a combination of season that I'm in, but also length of time I've been practising. The practise has evolved and changed as well as I've. As I've gone deeper into the teachings and my understanding of the teachings and seeing it more as lifestyle choices and ways of being in the world and seeing the world as opposed to something that I do each day or something that I need to make time for each day. It just kind of weaves its way throughout all aspects of my life. And I'll give you an example of this in, in the context of motherhood. Our youngest is in prep this year and she's been having a difficult time at school drop off. She's been getting quite upset, not all the time, but just sometimes. And because we're the back end of the year now, the teachers are starting to get a little antsy that, you know, she's going into grade one and perhaps there's something deeper than, you know, deeper to explore here and, and, you know, throwing around all of the labels and, and, and it's really nice to have this, this way of being, this grounded state of conscious awareness that comes from practise, practise of the yoga teachings to just take a step back and be able to see the situation for what it is. And that reminder that she's just turned six, six, she's still such a little person and where it's a big ask to ask children to step inside a school environment with a lot of noisy kids and feel A hundred percent safe and supported and, you know, wave goodbye to mum at the door and, and not take a second glance. I think we're asking a lot of our children in that setting. And so for me, without the teachings, I feel like I could probably read into that a lot and think like, maybe there is something that needs to rest here. But because of the yoga teachings, I'm able to just reflect back and just go, everything's fine. It's totally fine. She's six. Like, we'll just see how next year plays out. It's no big deal. We don't need to overthink this. We don't need to over, you know, over analyse it. It just is what it is. We just need to support her in that transition and, you know, and see how we go. So it's. Yeah.

Jo: And have you got any, like, it doesn't have to come from yoga, but have you taught her any kind of strategies for herself to kind of get more comfortable with transitions like that?

Kate: Yeah, a lot. My kids do a lot of. They've got a lot of knowledge already around yoga and breath work and mindfulness and yeah, they're very in tune with how they are feeling. So she's very articulate in her ability to be able to share in that moment. It is that and that, that sense of, I would prefer to be home with you, but I do really enjoy school. So it's trying to find that balance with her between, okay, well, if you really enjoy school, this is what the school environment and the structure looks like. If you want to go to school, parents can't come into the classroom and spend the whole day.

Jo: Right.

Kate: So you can have that conversation and really then empower them in the decision of, I mean, not that homeschool for her would necessarily be an option, but even just putting it out there and saying, because I know she wants to go to school, just putting it out there and saying, if you want to go to school, this is what needs to happen. If you don't want to go to school, then that's a different conversation. But if you do want to go to school, then this is, you know, this is the reality of the structure, you know, of the institution that is school. That's what it looks like. So here we are. So they, they definitely have those, those tools. And I think if we as mothers have those tools to be able to provide those gift those, but really live by example through those teachings to our children, I think that is ultimately what's going to, you know, radically shift the next generation. Of kids to bring, to bring up. Conscious, aware kids.

Jo: Yeah. I think just being able to feel and articulate your feelings is something adults that I know and sometimes even myself struggle with, like, yeah, we all feel overwhelmed sometimes.

Kate: Absolutely. I work in a corporate environment and there are plenty of adults that struggle with open, honest communication. It kind of blows my mind after having worked 10 solid years just in health and wellness and then to merge back into corporate life. It. It's been quite interesting to observe with all of the knowledge of, you know, the last 10, 20 years, just how much adult do struggle with that. But it obviously stems then from, you know, most often not having that, you know, those spaces to expand, express and understand how they're feeling, obviously when they were younger.

Jo: And also I think I haven't ever worked in an office, but it seems like corporate work culture is not necessarily based around honouring individual needs and people sharing about their feelings. That's not the vibe I get.

Kate: No, it's not really the vibe. Yes, you're right. I think it depends what organisation you work in. And I think to be fair to corporate, they, you know, from, from 10 years ago when I first stepped out of corporate, a lot has actually changed in the corporate world. They are, you know, they've still got a long way to go, of course, but there's definitely a lot more support around, around employees and particularly women in corporate as well. Even just a subtle change of. It used to be called sick leave and now it's called personal leave. And personal leave encapsulate a whole bunch of things. If your children are sick, if you've had a death in the family, if you need a mental health day, it's all just categorised under this concept of, of personal leave, which I really like. So there's definitely, like I say, a ways to go, but it's definitely improving.

Jo: And so to circle back to the Holistic Woman Podcast, do you want to explain a little bit more like your inspiration behind starting the podcast?

Kate: I think having that background in marketing and media, I've always loved having conversations with people. I've always loved writing and sharing from an education perspective. And so the initial idea for Holistic Woman Podcast was to bring forth conversations that I was already having with a lot of these people, either in a, you know, in a professional setting, having, you know, asking about different, you know, ways of doing things so that I could support my clients better and vice versa. And I thought these are the conversations that need to actually be in open forums where women can, you know, listen to this contemplate their own ways of being in the world, you know, maybe it's a catalyst for change for them, but just bringing these conversations more out into the open. And so that was the initial concept behind it. And so I, I'm really conscious of the guests that I bring onto the podcast as well, because I want those to be women who also share that similar idea and framework around women's wellbeing not being a one size fits all. And I get a lot of people who want to come onto the podcast, like a lot of people, but a lot of them are great women doing great work, but they are not, I suppose they're a lot of what they're teaching is a one size fits all approach. And a lot of what they're sharing is also really driving that capitalist yoga economy, which I feel really icky about and really don't want to contribute to in any way, shape or form. So those are the types of conversations that I really like having. I like having the conversations with the change makers, the people who are willing to have the more challenging conversations and challenge the, the norm of the way things are done in both the yoga industry and also then in women's health.

Jo: And so like, what's been your favourite aspect of the podcast so far?

Kate: It's a good question. I think I just love being in conversation with people.

Jo: I love it too.

Kate: It's so good. Yeah, it's just, just that, that weaving of conversation and not having a set, you know, question and answer structure podcast as well, that's my favourite. They're my favourite types of conversations where, you know, you might be talking about something over here and then you weave over here and start talking about something else and then circle back to that as opposed to, you know, tell us about your business and tell us about this and tell us about that. And it's seems very much like the person doing the, who is the host of the podcast really is just asking the guest questions and it then doesn't feel like this open conversation between the two people. And those are the ones that I like the best, the ones where there is open conversation between. Between the two.

Jo: Yeah. And like I pre prepare questions, but I know what you're saying because sometimes when I am researching a guest, I'll listen to their appearances on other podcasts and when you hear the same questions and answers like more than once in another place, and especially if the guest is like say a famous author or someone who does a lot of interviews, like, often their answer will just be the same for that same Question. So definitely, like, so true. More of a conversation. You just get to more interesting stuff.

Kate: Hey, you do. It's so true. You do get to. You get, like, more to the nitty gritty of stuff, which I really, I mean, like, we both love yoga, obviously. We love the philosophical aspects. And you go down the rabbit hole. Those are the conversations I love where you go down the rabbit hole and all of a sudden you're like, wow, what's over here and what's over there and this bit over here. And it just makes it from so much more enjoyable listening experience as well that they're the kinds of podcasts that I like to listen to.

Jo: And so, like, down all these rabbit holes, like, what's like, your best bit of treasure or your best surprise or like this insight that's kind of really changed how you think about something, like, what is a gem that you've uncovered?

Kate: I think we try too hard. I think. I think we try too hard. And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do certain things in a particular way and be a certain way. And I think. I think we just need to take that pressure off ourselves as women and acknowledge that we are women and we are. We have changing needs and we are diverse and we are forever changing on a daily basis, monthly basis, weekly basis And yeah, I think we just need to chill out a bit, actually. I think the world has gotten a little bit too serious and we've kind of forgot that true essence of just not. Not even that cliche of being in the moment, but actually just enjoying life and finding joy in life. Actually, I think, you know, a lot of women who work in the yoga field, it's. They're trying to achieve something. They're trying to create something, build some empire, whatever it is. And I just think, why, like, if you've got what you need, have we even established what it is that we actually need? Because if all of our needs are met in. In some way, shape or form, then what is it that we're constantly craving for? Why aren't we able just to enjoy what we have and let it just be whatever it's going to be? It doesn't have to be some massive things. Doesn't mean that it's not going to be, but it doesn't have to be. So it's almost like just that reframing around. What is it that we truly desire? And are we so stuck on what it has to look like, or can we free up some of that tension to allow it to evolve? And and look however it's going to look, because if the underlying need is met, then the underlying need is met and so we find happiness with that.

Jo: Hey, it's Jo here. Just popping in to give you an update on my body Positive aerial yoga retreat that I'll be leading in Bali this August 5th to a ninth. This retreat is open to everyone, no previous yoga or aerial yoga experience is required and I'll run some intro level classes if we do have first timers coming along, as well as experience level classes for teachers or people with an established practise who want to use the retreat setting as a way to explore some of those deeper layers. As the title suggests, there'll be lots of options for different bodies and needs and the aerial hammock is a great way to make the more subtle aspects of a yoga practise more accessible as it's a beautiful support for meditation and relaxation. We'll be staying at the gorgeous Floating Leaf Retreat which is Balinese owned and sustainably built venue surrounded by its own permaculture garden with a traditional bamboo yoga space that looks out over the rice paddies and sacred Pantai Punama beach. We'll also be exploring some contemplative creative practises both with me and with a local Balinese silversmith experiencing sound meditation, massage and a water purification ceremony as well as a Balinese cooking class. But there's also plenty of time to find peace and quiet and have time to yourself. And the retreat centre is actually designed with many beautiful spots for private meditation within the gardens. If you book in before March 7th, you can save $200 on an early bird price. Head to gardenofyoga.com to find out more and I'll pop that link in our show notes. Oh like what you're saying is really resonating with me and I think it swings back to the capitalist yoga economic system where there's this like growth mindset where if your business is not getting bigger every year then that's a fail. Even if maybe your business was at a sustainable level or if maybe what's sustainable for you is a certain amount of yoga classes and then other income from somewhere else. Like you don't have to be a full time international yoga teacher to like be a yoga teacher. Like there's so many different ways that we can do this and even like I've definitely been in workshops and training settings where it's like there's this expectation that the only type of education you can do is like more and more trainings which are Often, like, quite expensive. Or like, if you haven't done this training with this teacher, like, what are you even doing with your life where, like, there's so much amazing yoga education that's for free. Like, yes, there's so much online. There's books that you can read, which you could get from the library if you know it wasn't in your finances to buy them. Like, so many really amazing yoga teachers, like, just share a lot of their wisdom on their social media. Like, I really shout out to Jivana Hayman and a lot of the other accessible yoga teachers, like, they share so much free education online. And Dr. Sham Ranganatham as well, like, she has so much yoga philosophy for free on his website and online. If you don't have the budget for like the paid courses.

Kate: Yeah, it's so true. I often call these people who constantly need to do additional trainings because they feel like without that training they can't possibly teach that information or pass that wisdom onto their student. And so I refer to them as course collectors. It is people who go out and like, have the disposable income that they can just collect all of these courses, but they never truly feel satisfied or like they're actually enough to then be sharing this information and this wisdom. And I like to take it from the complete opposite approach where less is more, less trainings are actually better. And then as you pick up those aspects of wisdom along the way, whether it's you read a blog post and you think, wow, that's. I really resonate with that. And you sit and you contemplate that as it's, as a teaching in and of itself. And then that naturally flows into the way that you share and teach yoga with your students. That, that embodiment piece, you actually can't buy that. So you can't, you're not going to get that embodiment piece no matter how many trainings you do, unless you're taking that time afterwards to embody that and allow it to integrate and then allow it to pepper and sprinkle through your teachings. And so oftentimes the best teachers are actually ones that haven't done 10,000 courses. They're the ones that are actually truly living and embodying the teachings that they have and picking up those little pieces of wisdom along the way, allowing them to integrate and then flow into their teachings from there.

Jo: Yeah, definitely. Like, I find for me, if I, I don't start teaching the stuff that I've learned in the latest workshop or training, it just doesn't stay in my brain, like I just forget about it.

Kate: Yeah, for sure. And I like the way you've gone into some specialist areas as well, which is what I've done too. So rather than just doing, you know, a 200 hour and then a 300 hour and then a 500 hour and then a distance and then a that and then a. It's, you know, or going and doing another 200 hour but with a different teacher. So you can get another asset aspect of asana or something like that, that we've been able to really narrow down the focus as to how do I really want to show up and serve as a teacher and what do I want to be able to, you know, gift the students and what do I want them to get out of it? Because ultimately it's not about us, it's about. It's about them. We get it when we embody the teachings right. When we then show up to teach, it should always be about what's the student experience going to be like. And so to be able to narrow down to some sort of specialist fields, I think is really important as well, because then it's also very clear for students because there's so much yoga on offer. Oftentimes I think people do nothing because they just don't really know where to start. Do I do this type of yoga? Do I do that type of yoga? Oh, I'm. It's too hard, so I'll just do none. Right. But to have some specialist areas of focus really allows the individual to self identify very quickly. That pathways for me, and with all of the noise of trying to be all things to all people, having that streamlined approach makes it easier for students to decide and it also makes it easier for us to teach. I think, I think so too.

Jo: And I think the big bonus of, you know, focusing on a particular community's needs or a particular type of practise is when you do go and do that training again, just like when you go to the doctor, have your questions, because that is the ideal setting to ask those questions that might have come up in class that you might have been stomped on. Because you don't just get the wisdom of the teacher, you also get the rest of the room. Because other people might have also had similar experiences. Experiences or have their own insights.

Kate: Absolutely. When I went to study yoga therapy, I was already specialising in postnatal yoga for women. And so it all, that entire yoga therapy journey then in my mind was all centred around how can I take these teachings that I'm learning and these ways of working with people and apply them specifically to women in a postnatal way season. And so then that naturally evolved into working more in women's health. And, and I think, you know, when you do those more specialist trainings, you're able to really hone that in and focus on what it is you want to get out of it, as opposed to it being a nice experience. But you're not really super clear on why you're actually doing it.

Jo: Yeah, this kind of. I think it's coming from the same place and I think it's something that I'm already getting from your message and just the way that you're approaching your own life and your own teaching. But would you like to speak a bit about finding the balance between resilience and tenderness?

Kate: Yeah, it's a fine line, I feel, between tenderness and resilience. I actually think that we've as a society become too tender. I actually think we've gone too far into tenderness. And I don't think there actually is enough resilience there. And I think there's, there's sort of two ends of the spectrum. The ones that are super resilient, where there's no tenderness and then the ones where there's an over sensitivity to life. And so there, there is that, there is that fine balance because we do have to have the both and is what I love to, you know, speak about it. It's. We have to have the resilience but with the awareness that there's tenderness there and tending to our own individual needs, but at the same time allowing that to build resilience at the same time. So I don't actually think you can have one without the other if it's conscious when it's unconscious. I think you can have too much resilience where you're actually pushing down feelings and not actually allowing expression. And then the opposite of that is that there's too tenderness and you're just too sensitive to life and every moment feels like a challenge. And then oftentimes that leads to people who often complain about a lot of things that you think that's part of life. It's, you know, you've got to take that with the great things as well. You've got to find that, that balance. So yeah, I really think you can't have one without the other. When it's conscious, they, they're both present at the same time.

Jo: Oftentimes I think as well, there's another layer to all of this where we're kind of like living in this Time of unprecedented global turmoil and also tragedy. Like there's just so much horrible stuff happening in the world right now that it can be really overwhelming if you are already a sensitive person and then any little life thing that happens, you know, like there's not necessarily the resources to like even take care of yourself sometimes. So I think that like we're kind of living in this like really hard global time where it's like, yes, and all of those really intense, horrible things are happening in the world and we need to maintain our humanity. But to be able to like take positive action, like we've got to draw from that internal resilience as well as compassion. So it's like such a delicate, like it's a tough time to navigate as human beings and I'm far away from all of the, you know, most awful stuff.

Kate: Yeah, it is, it absolutely is that, that time. You're so right. It's, it's being able to hold all of the tragedy in the world. And you know, as we both know, there are some horrific things happening in the world right now at the same time as take actionable steps to create change at the same time as continuing to live our own daily life and bringing joy to our own daily life. And I, I try to do that a lot through our children because they're less exposed to, you know, the turmoil and the horrific what's taking place in the world, even though they have an understanding of it. But their joy is purely in the moment, right? Their, their joy and their understanding of life is one that is, you know, rose coloured glasses for want of a better term, because they do see all of the good things. They see all of the good things in people, they see all of the good things in humanity, in nature. And so that's a nice anchor point for me to. And it doesn't even have to be your own children. Like if you look at any children, they, they bring the joy. And even around the world where there are these horrific things taking place, there is still, even despite all of the heartache and the horrific circumstances, there is still joy in these children's eyes. And that to me just shows that's humanity, right? That right there is actually humanity. And that definition of grace.

Jo: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something I see come up. Like I listen to quite a few trauma informed podcasts and I like seek out accounts online to help me deal with all of this stuff. And Valerie Kua especially speaks about rediscovering joy and wonder and like opening our hearts wider than they, than we can Imagine now, like, as a way to, like, not look away.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: But to reimagine a better world for all of us.

Kate: Yeah. She's amazing. Her work is phenomenal. There is a tantric practise that is a form of meditation, but it includes mantra as well. And it's this. You come into a seated position and you open your arms wide as if you are. As if you are holding the entire world in your arms, wrapping the world in your arms. And then as you do this mantra, you do this. This sort of spinning kind of action. And I remember when I first learned it, all I could think about was all of the children in the world who were suffering. And it was so soothing to just have this mantra playing over and over. That vibration of sound, the gentle movement, the breath, and then this visualisation of literally holding the globe with all of these beautiful children in it. And so there are practises, like, she shares, there's so many of them. And so finding ones that really resonate with you, even just that in and of itself can be very soothing for your own nervous system, but also that actually creates more vibrational energy from you as a person to go out into the world and do more good things and create and cultivate more positive change. And so even if people think, like, what can I possibly do? I'm not financially resourced to do anything, or I'm not able to, you know, attend this event or that event to, you know, create this change, there's things that we can do within our own homes that actually cultivate radical change globally.

Jo: Absolutely. And even if we can't afford to go to the event, we can still amplify the message. We can still share about it, like, for sure. And I think. I don't know how much of an impact it makes, but, like, I often see, like, activist people online who I really admire, who work pretty tirelessly, like, even just sending them messages of support and saying, I love what you do. Thanks for putting it out there.

Kate: Thank you.

Jo: Like, yeah, I feel like. Like, that's gotta help. Like, you know.

Kate: Absolutely. Yes, I agree. Just to. Thank you. Sometimes just that motivation for someone to keep going.

Jo: So this is a completely different topic, but area of personal interest and fascination.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: Did you start out teaching Pilates? Am I correct about that?

Kate: Yeah, me too.

Jo: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: And you probably were in a similar era to me. And, like, the understanding of how our pelvic floors work and what is best practise for teaching around the pelvic floor has really evolved through my teaching lifetime. And, like, are There any kind of commonly held pelvic floor myths that you'd like to bust now or any, like, gems of wisdom that have really helped you expand your own understanding of this amazing area of our bodies and ourselves?

Kate: Yes. I love talking about this topic.

Jo: Same.

Kate: Yeah, obviously, of course. Yeah. I did start out teaching Pilates. Good memory. When I started then teaching yoga, it completely changed how I viewed the pelvic floor and actually seeing it. I think one of the biggest. Aha. Moments when I'm teaching women about the pelvic floor or I'm running a teacher training and we're. And we're. We're focused on pelvic health in one of the modules is that it actually works as a system. So it's not this, you know, it doesn't work in silo to the rest of our body. And I think people go, wow, okay. So my breath actually is the driver for the movement of the pelvic floor and that it's also connected into muscles through the abdomen and the back and wow, okay. And so I can see as doing something as simple as a cat cow movement and not even actually thinking. Thinking about the pelvic floor, but it's actually contracting and softening just with me using my breath and moving through the. The aspects of movement. So I think knowing that it works actually as a system rather than in isolation means that we can focus less on things that we've been taught as women, like make sure you do your Kegels and make sure you do your pelvic floor floor exercises and all of those pieces which have a place in some settings. But for the most part, it's actually bringing just that deep awareness to can you. When you tune into your breath to that level and you attune to your body and you move through a very simple movement. Most women, I haven't met a woman yet, and I've taught a lot of women that hasn't been able to consciously feel the movement of the pelvic floor. Whereas previously, if they were sitting in a setting, in say, a medical setting, and they were asked to contract and release their pelvic floor, the intensity of the contraction often means that it's very hard to soften completely. And so a lot of women walk around with actually an overactive pelvic floor, as you would know, so that, you know, easy to contract but very hard to relax. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of times in a woman's life where she actually needs to be able to relax the pelvic Floor, sexual intercourse when she's going to the bathroom, childbirth, menstruation, like there's a lot of moments in time where we actually have to be able to soften the pelvic floor to allow the release. And if, if it's, you know, if it's too tight then it can cause a lot of other health implications as well.

Jo: And like how tired would those muscles be if they were engaged all the time and they didn't like get a chance to relax?

Kate: Absolutely. But can you imagine it's the same with the belly, right? There's like how many women are told, myself included, you know, you, you draw the belly in, right. So you walk around in your day to day life with a sucked in tummy because you know, you don't want to have like any muffin top or you know, when you're a teenager. All of these like horrible ways of seeing a woman's body. I think it's really, you know, it's really challenging for, for young women to then grow into older women without all of these conditioned ways of seeing our bodies and thinking that we have to do certain things.

Jo: And even like beyond toxic diet culture, I've heard like I remember from old school Pilates they were like if you don't switch on your like that transverse abdominis and pelvic floor muscles and keep them engaged through that whole exercise and then the whole day like you're putting your back in danger.

Kate: Yes. Yeah. It's these like scared tactics. It's, it's wild. It just got me thinking about my son who's in grade four and he is, they've just started to learn about body awareness obviously as they move towards like a grade six where they talk about where they run a specific sex ed programme. But in grade four it's about teaching the kids about, just about their changing bodies and about, about what to expect as they start to move into puberty. And there was a, a brief kind of information session that they ran online and I thought I'll attend because I'm really curious about what they're going to speak about in this programme and also just to pregame any conversations that maybe we haven't had with him. Right. Thankfully all of them we'd already had with him. But one thing in particular really stood out to me and I felt really uncomfortable about it was the way that they were going to be teaching these young girls about the menstrual cycle and in particular about the burden of the menstrual cycle and the pain that you know, these Young girls will experience and the shame around it. And, and I was like, I don't agree with that. I don't like, why are we teaching young girls? This is the problem.

Jo: Right.

Kate: This is where it begins. When girls are as young as 10 years old being told that their menstrual cycle is a burden, that their menstrual cycle is shameful, that they need to hide it, that it will be, you know, extremely painful and they'll dread to have it each month and. And so forth. And so that opened a conversation then with our son around, actually the gift of the menstrual cycle. So, you know, we require the menstrual cycle to have children. We require a healthy menstrual cycle actually, just to have general health and well being. As a woman, that pain is actually not normal. And yeah, it was, it was great to be able to speak to him in that open kind of context because I hadn't thought that they would be teaching it in that way. And I was really surprised that that's what they were going to be sharing.

Jo: Yeah. And like two big negatives that I got from that was firstly, they're teaching little girls to expect their periods to be painful, which is not a given.

Kate: No.

Jo: And like they will grow into women who will go to their doctors with like real reproductive health issues and the belief that their period, like, it's normal that your period hurts.

Kate: Meant to be like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jo: And I know people have ended up in hospital with like burst ovarian cysts because their doctors told them that their periods just get heavier and more painful as they get older. Like.

Kate: Exactly. And that's why we see such a, you know, such a challenge for women to get diagnosed with endometriosis. You know, like why it's taking on average eight years for women to be diagnosed with endometriosis. Because even the medical system often sees it as normal. It's normal. Exactly what you've just described. It's normal they get heavier as you get older, you know, potentially more painful. It's normal. You know, it's part of being a woman.

Jo: Take a paddle with it and go home. Yeah. Right.

Kate: Deal with it. It's. It blows my mind actually.

Jo: Same. And then the other layer is like, we know that increased cortisol levels from stress increases our pain sensitivity. So they're like pre programming.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: Young kids to fear this thing that is going to be coming and like already building in that extra stress and particularly. And especially that extra pain. Like.

Kate: Yeah, yeah.

Jo: So unproductive.

Kate: Yeah. It is it was really. I had. I ended up having a conversation with the school about it because. Exactly. I was like, this is exactly what I do for a living, to try to, you know, bust these myths and actually re. Educate women around their menstrual cycle. So it actually really pains me that my son is going to sit in a session where this is going to be spoken about, where in our household we have a very different approach to women's health and wellbeing and actually really, you know, see it as a real gift and something really to be honoured in a woman's life, not shamed upon.

Jo: Yeah. And like, the other thing that I'm getting as well is like that ability to like, know your own unique system and your own body and to know when something is different for you and to, like, get that signal.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: Not to just have this baseline of like, oh, it's a nightmare every month to be like, yeah, oh, okay, that felt different this month. So what's going on? Like, why is it like that?

Kate: Exactly. Are there additional stresses in my life? Am I, you know, have I got exams coming up? If we're talking about young, young women, you know, have I. Is there something stressful happening in my family? You know, all of those, all of those pieces, there's a huge education piece missing for, for our younger people, I think.

Jo: And so that leads me to another question, which it's a really interesting one and I even like, feel this coming up for myself sometimes. So one obstacle that I see coming up for a lot of people regarding wellnesses, wellness practises, is that a lot of people feel like their lives are so full and their plates are so full and they're already a bit overwhelmed. It's really hard to fit in anything extra, like whether that's tracking your cycle or meditation or like even getting enough sleep. When people feel like they already have too many other things that they need to fit in their day. And of course, when we are in that state of, like, intense pressure, that's when these practises could be the most helpful. But that's when it's hardest to make the space for them to find that extra energy to add something into the mix. Like, what advice do you have for people who are already feeling a bit overwhelmed or maybe burnt out? Like, what's a good thing to prioritise and where to start?

Kate: Sleep, of course. Sleep's a big one and I think you can start really with doing nothing specific. Right. So not actually adding in anything, but more becoming aware of what you do already have. Because with that awareness comes oftentimes the clarity of ah, okay, I see that maybe I'm spending a bit too much time on social media before bed or maybe I, you know, could change the way that I'm eating slightly. Maybe I could, you know, take that extra five minutes to do xyz. It's so individual. I think I'm really conscious of people feeling, people who already feel like they've got an overflowing to do list to feel like they have to add anything more in. And so I draw from the, you know, the yin yoga teachings of, you know, having, having too much and feeling quite depleted. And actually then we actually need to take things away, not add things in. So actually you could end up doing nothing extra. No, no specific practise per se. But what actually in your life is possible to remove that will offer up a little bit more spaciousness, a little bit more time for contemplation perhaps. And then over time as more things fall away, then maybe it does open up a little bit more space for a 5, 10 minute walk or you know, a cup of tea in the sunshine or you know, some gentle yoga, stretching, you know, of an evening time. So I think we've, we've kind of capped out. We live in that world now where we are so busy. We actually need to move completely away from adding more things. Like how can I find an extra five minutes in my day? Because some people just literally do not have an extra five minutes in their day. Right. But what can we take away and also what do we need as an individual? So for me daily movement is a non negotiable because it feels good in my body for my mental health and well being it feels really critical, it feels so important. So daily movement is a non negotiable. So I will move things around to be able to always have that time. And sometimes it looks like you know, 45 minutes to an hour on one day and another day it literally might be 5, 10 minutes or it might be 2 Yin Yoga poses before bed. And that's, and that's, that's enough. But that's knowing yourself. So creating that spaciousness first to really know oneself, to know what it is that you actually need. And if you're not sure, then try different things. It's all about trial and error and over time and that's the thing that patience over time you'll know.

Jo: Yeah. Just from what you've just said, two, two ones occurred to me that I could be doing more of when I have that cup of tea in the afternoon for a break. Go outside, but leave my phone inside.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: And make that a contemplative moment. And I'm like, I'm already a sensitive sleeper, so I already don't look at my phone in bed at night.

Kate: Yep.

Jo: But it is a very sneaky, like, oh, here I am. I've just woken up and I'm already looking at my phone. Like, eliminate that phone time as well.

Kate: Yes. And for other people that they feel like they need that, they. They jump online first thing in the morning, they check things, and then they're like, okay, I'm good now. I feel like I've got so even. Yeah. But again, it's just knowing yourself. So you know that that works really well for you. What works for me? I know. And so it's. Yeah. About knowing yourself.

Jo: Yeah, definitely. And I love the idea that it's like, no, no, you don't have to add to that already full plate that, like, what could you take away? Like, what could give you some more space?

Kate: Yeah. I think we can all take a few things away. I can take a few things away also, for sure. Always. And sometimes you like being busy, so there's also sometimes where you actually. Like, I thrive on doing 10,000 things, so sometimes I really enjoy that. And other times I do feel like I need that spaciousness. So, you know, it's okay to take things away and then add things back in as well.

Jo: Yeah. I like the idea that it's not about balance within each individual day or even within your week. I like the idea of seasons. So you might have a busy season and that might be really exciting and inspiring, but then, you know, sometimes you've got to take a more quiet season afterwards. And as long as it's not an immediate financial crisis.

Kate: Yeah.

Jo: Happens in business as well. You can have a busy business season and then you can have a quiet patch and just. I've been running a studio long enough that I kind of know it happens every year. Like, there's always busy seasons.

Kate: Like, Yep.

Jo: Relating to the calendar seasons and then quiet time. So rather than, like, pushing in that quiet time and making more work for myself, doing more marketing, trying to drum up business in other ways, just kind of be like, okay, just enjoy the space. Just have a bit of a breather. Like, do those other things, like, more reading or. Yeah, that's a great time to do a deep clean of my studio space. Like all those other things. Just, you know, lean into the quiet.

Kate: I love that. Leaning into the quiet. The quiet times or the down. The winters Right. If we're looking at seasonal things, it got me thinking about, you know, not just the capitalist yoga economy, but the capitalist economy in general, which is push, push, push, push, push. Like you said earlier in the conversation, you know, your business might already be at this beautiful, sustainable level. You're really enjoying that ebb and flow of busy periods and then quiet our period. But we have been conditioned to growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth at all costs. Right. So growth during the busy period, growth during the quiet period. And this, you know, this little, you know, thing in the back of your mind where you're like, okay, it's a quiet period. I'm not doing enough marketing. I need to be doing more. Whereas I love what you're saying about actually, you don't need to do more. Take that step back, look at where you're at, and lean into that quiet time and use that for yourself to almost. To build that resilience, actually, to carry you through the busy periods as well.

Jo: One thing that I think about every year that I haven't been brave enough to do, because the tricky thing about the quiet season is you never quite know how long it's going to last, for sure. So each year I'm like, should I be taking a holiday this time of year when it's quiet? But the other part of my brain is like, but there's not a lot of money coming in. Like, can you afford to take a holiday? Like, you know, shouldn't you also be kind of like living a bit more frugally if you're not making as much?

Kate: Yeah, so that's, that's one that I.

Jo: Have a dilemma with.

Kate: Yeah, I also have that dilemma. And I just always choose holidays anyway, which my bank balance doesn't love. But I choose holidays always because it's, I think, similar to you. It fuels something so deep within that it's, it's, it's worth it. Not that you would put yourself under financial strain, but, but, you know, if there was.

Jo: Yeah, Take a cheap holiday.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. Take a cheap one for sure. Absolutely. I'm with you.

Jo: Cool. So we're almost at the end of our time, and I know you have many exciting things on the horizon and in your present. Yes. Anything that we haven't touched on yet that you'd like to talk about?

Kate: I don't think so. I mean, there's so many different directions we can go. Right. So I think we've covered, you know, enough to give anyone who's listening some moments of, you know, I hope, contemplation. And reflection in their own lives and yeah, and hopefully be that catalyst for someone's change.

Jo: Beautiful. And I'll put all of your links and places for people to find you in the show notes as well if people want to continue on that journey. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Ah, I almost forgot. Yes, if you could distil everything that you've learned and everything that you teach today and live into one core essence, like what do you think that would be?

Kate: Oh, I would say live your life, align to your season as a woman and always be looking at how you can simply meet the need of the hour.

Jo: Beautiful. Great message. Thanks so much Kate. So good to talk to you.

Kate: Thanks so much Jo.

Rane: We really hope you enjoyed our conversation with Kate. We've put all of her links in our show notes on our website podcast flowartist.com if you'd like to learn more. And again, a quick reminder that we'd love it if you could write us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or leave us some stars on Spotify. This is a great way to help others find the podcast and show your support. We also love hearing from our listeners and finding out what you enjoy about the podcast. We also really appreciate it when you share our posts about each and every episode or leave us a comment online. You can find us at the Flow Artist Podcast Facebook page or look for Rane Loves Yoga or Garden of Yoga on Instagram. We're a DIY operation and your community support really helps. An extra special thanks goes out to our Patreon supporters. Your donations help us cover editing and hosting costs and we appreciate you so much. You can even join our Patreon for free now. To get the latest updates just go to patreon.com flowartistpodcast Kate has generously shared a free Intro to Yoga for Women video class with our Patreon supporters. We'd also like to express our gratitude to Ghost Soul for granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out ghostsoul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can can express here. Arohanui maua kia koutou katoa Sending you big big love.