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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane Bowen and this is the Flow Artist Podcast. Together with my co host, Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. But before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honor the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wurrundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode, we're speaking with Nada Todorovich, the proprietor of Dragonfly, a local cafe and deli that's also a social enterprise and a hub for creativity and community. We talked to Nada about her experiences growing up in a small country town and how she honours her family history and traditions in the work she does today. Please be advised that Nada briefly talks about the death of both her parents and indeed, that was the inspiration for starting Dragonfly. We also talk about sustainability, both in terms of the produce she stocks, but also how to phase out the different stages of building out her dream space. Social justice is a big part of Nada's work and many of the events she hosts are political. With that in mind, we also talk about the worrying political climate here in Melbourne and and around the world. So let's get into our conversation. All right, Nada, so great to finally get the chance to speak with you, especially after finishing a busy day at work all by yourself. So it's great to get you here and have a conversation. So perhaps we could just start with you maybe telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up.

Nada: Sure. Hi, everybody. I grew up in central Victoria in a very Anglo community with parents that were Bosnian. We lived with my grandfather who was also from Bosnia, and back then it was Yugoslavia and we were weird and different and I found out how racist Australia is. And apart from us, there was a couple of other families of non Anglo background. And yeah, it was interesting that it was a good grounding for the rest of the world, I think.

Jo: I'm intrigued. What was weird and different about your family?

Nada: Oh, they were very Bosnian, culturally, and it didn't fit within. Like, for example, I grew up with every Sunday morning my mum would make pancakes and I was ashamed of these pancakes for most of my life because they weren't the little flat. Not little flat, little fat round ones that everybody else had. And then I got out into the world and found out we were having crepes and I'd spent my whole life, well, My young life being ashamed of crepes. And they're the superior pancake. Yeah.

Rane: Yeah.

Nada: So, yeah, that was weird. We did things that are now, you know, in vogue, but back then we grew our own vegetables. We had a quarter acre block and most of it was dedicated to growing our own veggies. Mum had a cow that she ran along the creek. Is this weird enough for you, Jo?

Jo: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm intrigued. Yeah.

Nada: She had that for a while, and then the cow was a bit too big for the place, and so we got a goat and she made a couple of friends with that goat because her closest and oldest friend became friends because she was looking for goat's milk for her son who was lactose intolerant. And, yeah, it was. It was a different lifestyle to what the other kids were experiencing. And I didn't speak English until I was just before I went to school. So whenever I have a memory that's in Yugoslavia nor Bosnian, I know that it's pre six. So, yeah, interesting stuff.

Jo: So when you say, when you have a memory that's in Yugoslavian or Bosnian, like, in your head, is it, like. Is it an internal voice?

Nada: Yeah, the internal voice. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. And I don't have many, but, yeah, every now and again I'll be like, okay, that's gotta be pre six. Cause, yeah, it's weird. Brains are weird. Yeah, yeah.

Jo: And like, what you're saying, like, your childhood sounds like the kind of YouTube videos that I watch when I need to calm down. Just like some. Some chill farm life. Yeah, the vegetable garden.

Nada: It was crazy because dad had so many chickens. It was insane. And at one stage he had. I don't even know what sort of ducks they were, but they were kind of this big. And they. I think they were. I don't know, they were. They were large. Sorry, I'm doing hand signals on podcast. It works really well up to shoulder high is what I'm trying to say.

Rane: That's a big duck.

Nada: It's a really big duck. And they had really long necks. And he had a pack of them and they were. They were really cute. And every now and again the counselors would come around and go, Steve, you're. You're. Your bomb's getting a bit too big. You're going to have to cut back again. You go, yep, right, sure, sure. And he cut it back and he had peacocks like it was a menagerie. It was fantastic.

Jo: Amazing.

Nada: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was an amazing, beautiful childhood. And then when I Got to teenage hood. My grandfather moved out and he got a farm in one of the local areas and we used to go there a lot on weekends and that was fantastic as well. Just growing up in the bush and pottering around and you know, collecting wood with the family and that sort of thing. So that's a little bit about my background.

Jo: And so is that where your love from food for food came from?

Nada: 100 yeah, yeah. My mum's love language is food and so she came from. They both came from. Well, all of them actually came from war torn country and she had a lot of issues but one of the things that she was consistent with was, was feeding us and showing us how much she loved us through food. So food was integral and it's a big part of in culture too. You show your love with food and.

Jo: Is it that aggressive? The wrong word. But like, oh, it's abundant love. The kind of love that's hard to say no to sometimes.

Nada: I've got a friend who we went and visited the woman that taught my mum to cook and her family and it was with her that her name was Jo as well. Beautiful people. It was through her that she learned to say nefala, which means no thank you in Yugoslavia because she just kept being crammed with food and food and like it's all delicious and wonderful but you get to the point where you just like not can't go any further. So.

Jo: Yeah, and like you've got to like have the. No thank you. Like already out the door before you're full because, you know.

Nada: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And there's food to go home with you and yeah, you know the deal.

Rane: So I think, I think it's funny that you're sitting in our extremely colorful kitchen, dining room and saying that you're the weird one.

Nada: So I think if we're all authentic, we are actually all a bit weird and kooky.

Rane: Yeah.

Nada: And I think we're led to believe that we're supposed to be a certain way, but if you do that, you just turn out to be vanilla and bland and I'd rather not be that. Yeah, I'm definitely not that.

Jo: And so could you tell us about Dragonfly Cafe?

Nada: Okay. So. So connected to my parents. I probably should have talked about this with you before warning my. I don't know if you know this, Jo. My parents died dramatically.

Jo: No, I didn't know.

Nada: Okay. They hit a truck and a tree and both died at the scene. And my little one was one year old at the time and it was quite a Shock. And they were kind of hitting the prime of their lives. And so the grieving process for me was really challenging because I had a little one, and I just kind of worked through all my issues with my. Well, as many issues as you can with my mum. And, yeah, we were cruising, and it was really a really good relationship. And then they were suddenly gone. Wrong. Oh, God. Yeah. And it was quite a journey to get through that. And I'm still like, I don't think it ever leaves you when you lose people that are really significant and you love them. Heaps. But one of the things that happened during the process is that they became the catalyst for Dragonfly, which is why I'm talking about them. So it's an ode to them and their hospitality. And they were very sustainable, on the verge of hoarding, and they were very frugal with what they did, and they were very. It was funny. Dad was doing permaculture stuff way before I'd learned about it. And then I learned about it and had to apologize to him because he'd been doing it and showing me, and I'd be like, no, dad, you don't do it like that. You don't. What are these mounds that you're making? And he also got into bees. And I feel like I've been apologizing to my dad a lot since he's left.

Jo: And also honoring him with what you do now.

Nada: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So he was very into bees, and, you know, he had farms wherever he could. And so this is all about connecting to and with community as well. The small country town was hit really hard when they left the planet, and they were all about helping people and each other and that connection. So, yeah, Dragonfly is an ode to them. It's a sustainable. Sorry. It's a social enterprise, and sustainability is a big part of that. Its foundation is, well, being. So sustainability, repairing what we can of the genocide that happened here. Being good people, you know, no racism, no transphobia, homophobia. Yeah, Just trying to be good people.

Jo: And is the dragonfly itself a symbol of transformation or.

Nada: It is. And that's weird, because the dragonfly is my side hustle. So my real job is as a remedial massage therapist. And on my card, a friend of mine years ago did a little logo which was a droplet in the ripples, which I quite love. And the dragonfly sort of hovered at the side. And so when I was trying to think of a name for this enterprise, it was just like, has to be Dragonfly. And you're right. Dragonfly, I found out since, is about transformation and it's got all these beautiful meanings. And also when I was 10 and mum and dad were going to go back home to Yugoslavia, I may have been putting dragonflies in books and squishing them, as you do when you're 10. And they've always been around me somehow. So I feel like, and this is going to sound very woo woo, but I feel very much like I'm embracing my destiny and my calling with this project and it's really pushed me in a lot of ways, but it feels very significant.

Jo: Yeah, that's amazing and so beautiful.

Nada: Thank you, thank you.

Jo: And so like, you're saying it's a social enterprise, like it's not just a cafe, Right. Like, that's a small section of the building that you have. Do you want to, like, tell us about some of the other things that you do?

Nada: Sure. It's eventually going to be a cafe, a deli and a community group space. And God, it's so big, I don't know where to start. The community group space will be a place where people can do all sorts. The that area will be a sprung floor and there'll be workshops, dancing, groups. I don't. Whatever the community feels like doing, life drawing. There's been lots of interesting ideas floated and with the cafe in the deli, sustainability is a big part of that and keeping things as local as possible, because that's the better way to go on so many levels. Oh, God. Sorry, Jo.

Jo: No, that's all right. I've just seen from your social media, just like some of the groups and the things that you've previously hosted there. Do you want to share some of those?

Nada: We have weirdly become the home of bobbin lace in a way. So bobbin lace is this ancient technique, mainly women, passed down orally for a long time, where you use bobbins to make lace. And we inherited these beautiful lace sculptures of little gum leaves that were done by different members of the Victorian Lace Guild. I didn't even know that existed. And the beautiful Lindy DeWine, she's been hosting a couple of workshops at the space and it's been amazing. And we've also had. Recently, the Northern knitters have decided they like us and they're just a group of people that mostly knit in cafe spaces. What else have we had you post.

Jo: A lot of pro Palestine stuff, right?

Nada: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. When after October 7th, we had an information night that we used to run just to find out what was actually happening. From people that were connected. Because I've had a lot of people, not a lot of people, but a number of people say to me, oh, but you know, how do you know? And you know it, it's Hamas, you know, they're the problem, they're the problem. And it's after talking to people who have actually been there who are Palestinian, you soon get an idea of what's actually happening. And it's been a genocide for quite a long time. And it's just, I don't, my brain explodes with why we are still not sanctioning Israel and not doing the right thing by the world. But that's where we're at. And because my parents came from a war torn country, my grandfather was a prisoner of war. He jumped on a boat thinking he was going to America and ended up in Tasmania and that's how come my family's here. I know a little bit the trauma that war can do and I just, I'm horrified for what's happening in the world. And the thing that gives me hope is there are a lot of really beautiful, kind hearted people that are doing their best to try and make it stop. So, yeah, we do a lot of support of Palestinian groups and we're about to do some fundraising and one of them is going to be a Palestinian catered dinner that we just have and that'll be.

Jo: Sounds amazing.

Nada: Do you have a date yet? Not yet, not yet. I'll let you know. It'll be soon though because. Yeah, great. Yeah, yeah, there'll be some gorgeous stuff happening. There is some gorgeous stuff happening all the time. What else have we done? Sorry, I had notes and I have not referred to them at all.

Jo: That's good, that's a good sign.

Nada: Okay, let's go with that. Yeah, I don't know, it's a very broad idea of making the world a better space. It's. Yeah, it's just basically a safe space for people. And you've been there, both of you. And it's. The whole vibe is about making it as accessible to people as we can. We've obviously got a long way to go, but we're getting there. We're slowly getting there.

Jo: To me, it comes back to the ripple that you were talking about. So there's a lot of like horrific things happening in the world which as an individual, it's really hard to make a change. But like the little ripples that you send out in your community and the space that you offer to people and the support that you offer to people. Yeah, like that is something absolutely you can do.

Nada: And it comes back, too, because for a little while, the Greens were using our space as a campaign headquarters. And they came in last week when I was feeling really. Because this sort of stuff, small business, is hard work and overwhelming. And, yeah, I was having a very, very hard day. I'm not sure why, but I think it just got on top of me. And I think I cried at nearly everybody that came in that day. But I had a bunch of the Greens come in, and they were just stunning, stunning human beings and one I'd only just met. And we've decided we're sisters and amazing. So it's. It's. It comes back. Not that that's why I do it, but, you know, this reciprocity that, you know, the world is supposed to operate on, it's there. It's just a matter of tapping into it and making more of it. So. Absolutely, yeah.

Jo: And we were talking before we started recording how you're just coming to the end of, like, a big phase of your renovation. Yes, definitely is. Emotionally and physically.

Nada: It might have had something to do. Yeah, it's. It's been a lot.

Jo: And I've never had to do it in a cafe where you just have to be constantly cleaning anyway. And then. Yes, the renovation.

Nada: Cleaning. Yes. On top of that, the dust at the moment is doing my heading. I actually made a comment about. Because we've got 1950s Czechoslovakian start, Czechoslovakian glass chandeliers and the dust, because we've just had the plastering done and it's next level. And I was saying to one of our customers yesterday, I was like, oh, the dust on the chandeliers is really doing my head in. And they were like, yes, darling, the dust in the chandelier. I was like, oh, yeah, it does sound really bourgeois, doesn't it?

Jo: This is my revolutionary space. I've got to sort out my twinkling chandeliers. Selling my sparkle.

Nada: Exactly. I mean, yeah, you got to have your sparkle. Yeah.

Jo: And I think, as well, it is like, people who aren't really in, like, an activist kind of community probably have a perception in their mind about, like, what activism has to be. And I actually love sharing from people who do it their way and, like, share what they love, but with that goal of making the world a better place in an active way.

Nada: Yeah. It's weird that people have to label people as activists, because it's just I'm slowly realizing that I'm probably quite neurodiverse. And on top of everything else, that's going on with me, and I get a bit cross with labels sometimes. It's just, you know, you. You see things that are not right, and you do what you can, and it feels. It feels worse to not do something. So the more I learn about the world and the more I find out about the way things run or, you know, the corruption. The corruption in our world is insane. Covid, although it was really difficult for a lot of people, was fantastic because it took me out of my little bubble, because here in Northgate, Preston, we're in a little bit of a bubble of goodness, and you get out into the other suburbs and you realize how tough it is for a hell of a lot of people. And I think since then, I've just really ramped up what I'm doing. And also with mum and dad going, like, the people that helped me through was community, and you've got to give back. You can't just suck it up. And, I mean, you could, but it just doesn't feel right. So you've just got to give back. And the more we can, the less it is for other people, so.

Jo: And the more, like, a part of your community, you are like that reciprocity.

Nada: You were talking about.

Jo: This is a little bit of a side tangent, but I remember I was in Dragonfly one day, and I was, like, checking out your, like, some of the design choices that you've made with your renovation. And, like, I loved your thinking behind that as well. Do you want to share a bit about.

Nada: Sure.

Jo: How, like, how your heritage is really infusing your space?

Nada: Yeah. Yeah. So. So many things I've tried very much to. Because I think history is really important. And what is it that quote, if those that don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it, and we really need to look into history. So I've really tried to lean into the history of the building, and I've left as much of it the way it is as I can. So the warehouse aspect of it I've tried to accentuate, and I've just leaned into that as much as possible. I've also just kind of. I've had a lot of help along the way in different ways, and I guess this is my creative outlet, is just trying to make it feel as comfy as I can to me, and it just seems to hit a lot of kick, a lot of goals. I'm getting my metaphors mixed up. Not metaphors, whatever they are. So, yeah, there's been lots of little suggestions that I'll take on, and others that I'll go, nah. And I'm sorry to the people whose suggestions I haven't taken on, but it's just, feel free to keep throwing them at me because some will land and I'll go, yep. And some will land and mutate, and it just depends. So one of the suggestions was Paige, who works with us, suggested that we do a filigree around the servery. And we've got Durapanel, which is this amazing sustainable product. It's made out of straw waste from farming and it's been in Australia since about the 50s. It's a Scandi technique and it's basically compressed straw and it's fireproof, insulative. And, yeah, it's just amazing. And it degrades to straw, so it's amazing. So in that where she suggested putting a filigree around the servery and I thought, ah, I could probably reach into my Bosnian heritage here. And so I'm collaborating with this amazing artist, artist Philippa, who we call Pip, and she's going to use the design from stuff that I grew up with, little Bosnian cross stitch, which is very similar to the Tetris of the Palestinian stuff, which also works somehow with that connection. And we're going to. We originally were going to do a stencil, then we were going, we with the stencil. We really like the stitches. And it's just been this evolutionary process and now we're actually going to make it look like it's stitched into the wall, which we're exceptionally excited about. So we're in the process of doing that at the moment. And it's very exciting, Very, very exciting.

Jo: And, like, how fun to get to this phase of the renovation process, do the fun stuff.

Nada: It is so fun. It is so fun. And, yeah, it's been amazing. Like, we've got serious bare wood, got us some wood from the cypress hedges that were dying of canker throughout Gippsland, and that's what our benches are. So, you know, it's weird that you talk about design, but I feel like it's more just harvesting rather than designing. It's just sort of coming to the process.

Jo: It makes me think of a nest. Like, you've gathered all these things from your environment and you're like, making this cozy home.

Nada: Yes, yes, it is a nest, actually. Liz, who also works with us, said at one stage, it's a nest of neurodiverse, something I can't remember, but her quote was about nesting. So nice. Thank you.

Jo: And like, I'm. Sensory processing is like something I'm really fascinated by, like, how much color and texture and your environment can affect your mood and like movement as well, because that's what I work with. But we've got a really neurodivergent, really neurodiverse community here. And what a lot of people say when they come to the studio is like, how cozy and warm it feels compared to a lot of yoga studios that are really like stark and white and clean. And I mean, definitely you want a cafe at a deli to be clean, but that is a really prevalent design style that I see a lot of. It's like white walls, like plywood, concrete floor, and it's not a very nurturing vibe. So.

Nada: And the sound bounces on those surfaces and I, I can't deal with that. I find it really challenging. And when I go out with people, I actually want to be with the people and hear what they're saying and, you know, converse. And you can't do that if you've got music blaring at you or if there's the sound of everything bouncing back at you. So I've tried to create a space where people can actually have conversations and connect with each other. And there's a part of me that wants that kind of French Revolution vibe going on as well and fueled by coffee always. So, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a beautiful space. I'm really proud of the way it's coming together. It's looking really, really good. Not at the moment because we're covered in dust and like I said, chandeliers. So, yeah, getting there.

Jo: And like, obviously this has been a big dream and a long time in the making and often that is, like when you're a small business, like, you kind of can't do everything at once. From the beginning, having got to this phase in the process where you are now, like, do you have any thoughts for people who are maybe just at the beginning of like a multi stage something or like they've, they've started something and they're not even sure where it's going to evolve into. Like, has there been anything that's helped you along your way or anything that was like, oh, I used to do this and it wasn't helping me at all?

Nada: Good question. I think be prepared for it to not go the way you want it to, 100%. Also build up your support network. So whether that be your community, try and be as prepared as you can, even though you can't. It's impossible. I, I often call it my, my baby because it is very much like having a child. So you just don't know what you're going to get into and like it's just starting to toddle and very soon it's not going to need my support as much. And so it can go out into the world and be what it's going to be. But yeah, it's just also have as much money as you can possibly have and be aware that it's never gonna be enough. And yeah, just be prepared for the ride. There's a lot of highs, a lot of lows. It will test you or test your relationships. I lost a couple of relationships through it. Yeah, it's, it's big. It's really big. But also the rewards are equally as big and just starting to see how people are connecting and some of the food that we have is stunning and like there's some really, really good things about it. So, yeah, just go for it. You're going to make mistakes. That's part of it. Just be prepared to roll with it and you just don't know where it's going to end up or how it's going to end up or when it's going to end up.

Jo: And it's never really finished, like, especially.

Nada: If it's a business.

Jo: Yeah, it's always going to be evolving. Yeah.

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Nada: And just hang in there as well because I think because I invested so much of myself in it, I couldn't let it go because I think there were plenty of times where I was Just like, nah, I'm done, I'm out of here. And I just couldn't because it's like a kid. You can't just go, I'm sick of being a parent. I'm walking out of here. So I think my latest thinking is about how we are all. How we all need to tap into our inner mana. Mother. And how we need to treat all of our creations as our children. And you don't actually have to have a child to have children, if that makes sense. So everything that we put our heart and souls into, that's our creation. That's, you know, and there'll be a point where they don't need you anymore and they go out into the world and they do what they do. Yeah. So that's my latest thinking. Don't know where that's going.

Jo: No, it's beautiful. And I think, I don't know. Sometimes people talk about like balance, work, life, balance, which isn't necessarily possible if you're kind of in a really intense phase of your business. And something that makes more sense to me is like the idea of seasons. So you can have like a really busy, really intense season. And as long as you like follow that up with a bit more of a chill season so you've got time to recover and recharge your batteries and like maybe save up for the next phase if it's something that's, you know, a multi phase thing. Like otherwise just trying to find balance in your work and life can just be like another thing to beat yourself up about. Like another thing that you feel like you're failing at.

Nada: So I don't know, most people that I talk to that are doing small business are doing it hard, working really long hours and there is no balance. You've just got to try and hang in there. I had been working seven days a week for quite a long time, like years. And that's been really tough. And yes, it's my choice, but it's also recognizing that that's what we have to do to survive. And it's been a really difficult process to find balance. And what I've been trying to do is a lot of yin yoga because that's all I've got the capacity for. I can't do yoga, yoga too much. So when I can, I do yin. And I've been connecting with nature as much as I can. So I'll go to a couple of little places very close by and I'll take my little blanket and a book and I'll just lie on the Ground and watch the clouds or fall asleep or sometimes the local dogs come up and talk to me. And this beautiful memory of a. An amazing bloodhound. I think her name's Athena. And she came up to me one day, and I was like, oh, no. Bloodhounds drool like slobbery jails. And I was like, oh. And she came up just within arm's reach, and I was just patting her. And just this fluid face in front of me was just the most therapeutic thing I have experienced. And I don't know, she just. And she just kept kind of going, pat me more, please. And it was. It felt like I was doing. She was doing me a favor rather than the other way around. So it just. I don't know. But connecting to nature in whatever little way I can, and I've just kind of given up, you know, doing the right things. You just kind of have to do what you can when you can. And it's more like. I think people talk about glimmers, just having little glimmers as often as you can, because it's tough. It's really tough. And when I find it's too much, I just think, okay, people in Gaza are putting up with way more shit than I am. Just suck it up. This is something to be grateful for. This is my problem. So I just kind of go with it like that. And, you know, having to make beautiful coffee and eat gorgeous food and talk to people all day, I mean, it's really tough.

Jo: So I feel like what you just said, like, sometimes when the world news is really intense as well, like, sometimes that can make. Like it's just another layer of overwhelm.

Nada: Absolutely. Absolutely. But it's also perspective, because I'm grateful to my grandfather for bringing us here. And one day I will go back and visit my family again. I've got to ring my uncle. He's been hustling my sister, saying, you need to call, so I've got to do that. But, yeah, it's. It's about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought. Sorry.

Jo: No, no, We've just heard how hard you've been working. Understood.

Nada: Perspective. Yeah. So, yeah, just remembering that it's really important to recognize our privilege because a lot of us are, you know, even though we whinge a lot, you know, we're. We're really okay. We've got roofs over our heads, most of us, and there's a whole bunch of people that don't. And there's a lot harder things out there. So it's about Being grateful as much as you can and I guess, like.

Jo: Tapping back into, like you're doing what you love. Absolutely. Like it was your dream.

Nada: Yeah.

Jo: And now it's real. And even though it's hard, like, that's massive.

Nada: Exactly. Yeah. And that does give a lot of strength when you don't realize, you know, you don't think you can keep going and you just go, okay, well, what's the important. For example, it's costing a lot of money. So I was thinking about what's important and I came back to the planet. The planet's the most important thing. And then I was like, okay, and what's important about the planet? Trees. Because I feel like trees are the. The entity of the planet and we're just gut bacteria. So I was thinking about that and then I went, oh, my God, we need to plant more trees. And then I thought of my friend who's offered a part of his family's farm where we've got a carbon offset up there in Echuca and on Yorta Yorta country. And we're going to do another replanting and use it as a fundraiser and get the Yorta Yorta community involved. And I'm very excited about it. So, yeah, just when you come back to what's real, like the planet is the thing that we need to come back to every single time, because we're just. We're supposed to be custodians and we're not doing a very good job of it. We need to get better.

Jo: Oh, you'll have to, like, give us the details of that fundraiser as well when that's all happening.

Nada: Absolutely.

Jo: And so you have to, like, you've touched on this a little bit with, like, some of the choices that you've made with your business, with what you stock. And like, it's been a conversation that we've had when I've come in as well. And obviously, like, local is a real priority for you because sometimes it is like a balance of different things. Like, obviously there's budget, because normally the most sustainable organic, you know, small company locally thing, it's not always the cheapest choice. In fact, it usually isn't. And then, like, sometimes there'll be like a company that's got like a really amazing social enterprise behind it, but, like, their thing comes from overseas versus something that's local that's just a bit more, you know, like, they don't have that other layer to their business. And, like, I'm vegan as well, so sometimes it's like, oh, If I want to have this like chocolate or something, I mean, chocolate's from far away for everyone, I guess.

Nada: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jo: Living cocoa is a good local option. Yeah, chocolate, that's all vegan.

Nada: Yeah, yeah. There's some good chocolate makers. Although chocolate isn't grown in Australia that much.

Jo: No.

Nada: If at all.

Jo: I don't grow in Samoa.

Nada: Okay, okay, yeah, so yeah, so there's some amazing brands and local. Sorry we cut you off.

Rane: No, it's all right. I just said I think there is some very little small amount.

Nada: Yeah, yeah. So we as much as possible try, go for local as opposed to overseas. But like chocolate, it's grown overseas. There's a whole bunch of spices that won't grow in Australia and they're grown elsewhere. We try and get to know all the people that we deal with. So that way we are going from source and usually it's just a bunch of people that are passionate about what they do. And one of my favorite, because one of the questions you asked was who my favorite suppliers are. And that was a really hard question. But one of my favorites is Tropical City Mushrooms and they are probably our most sustainable product and they're in Elphington. They grow their own mushrooms. They do it in a really sustainable way. Julia's really passionate and amazing and they as much as possible try and source locally. They've only just recently had to source, I think sunflower oil from overseas, which I think Julia really struggled with. But that's that balance and we are not going to do things right 100% and it's kind of what stops us from doing anything. So you've just got to be aware that you're going to make mistakes. Like I want this to be as sustainable as possible, but there's so many things that we do that are not sustainable because the systems aren't there. And we've just moved into this plastic coated world and it's just really hard to get good quality local produce. So it's a balancing act. Decisions are made from the gut as much as the brain and we just try and support locals much as possible and we go from there, I guess. And it is challenging and the price is an issue. So we don't make a lot of money on essentials like milks and breads. Our natural is another milk that we have. It's an almond milk and it's made locally. And Maria Louise is this amazing, passionate Italian. She's really fiery and gorgeous and yeah, she's. We've been working with her from the Very start. And she makes the most beautiful things. And she's got a place in St Kilda now called El Natural, it's on Ackland Street. Highly recommend.

Jo: Yeah.

Nada: And they do a lot of vegan stuff as well. And yeah, they, they're very much about sustainability. And I think my favorite suppliers are the ones that work with us to make things more sustainable because we're all trying to work in this world and, you know, deal with government regulations and the way things work, it's, it's really challenging. So it's trying to do the best we can and sometimes that's really tricky.

Jo: It's tricky with stuff. Like you mentioned the bread before as being something that you don't make that much money from. Like, bread's tough because it's got such a short shelf life and you don't want to put it in a plastic bag. But like.

Nada: But we don't. Yeah, yeah, we encourage people to bring their own bags and there's a couple of our customers that do it religiously, which is beautiful. And a lot of them will do it in a wax coated material bag, which is really beautiful. But yeah, you're right, you know, you don't want to be putting that in plastic. We don't. When most of the bags, like, if you seal them, they can be pretty good. The paper ones, I have issues with the paper bags too, still single use. And so yeah, there's a lot of tricky stuff and it's really hard to navigate but you do the best you can and you just keep trying to do better each time.

Jo: And I remember one time I came in and you gave me this like from the freezer, this amazing gluten free focaccia which was like locally made from eat cannoli and like, amazing because normally that's what you don't get with gluten free, like crunchy outside and like yummy chewy sourdough inside. So obviously that's something that you do as well to like reduce waste. Like you don't just throw it out.

Nada: At the end of the day, what you're talking about there is what a couple of the team call the bread ritual. So we have this system where if we have leftover buns and baguettes and bread in general, actually, if it's starting to get a bit old in the tooth, we will give it to new people as a way of welcoming them and reducing food waste. And we also will like, sorry, I've got 600 thoughts going on when, because our bread is such good quality, we get at the moment, we get it from Alex Bake and Akimbo and Prablique and also eat cannoli who are also called Round Table for some reason. I'm not sure why.

Jo: Maybe they wanted something different for their bread.

Nada: Yeah, I've got to talk to Dom about that and go, why two names? So when those breads are not fresh anymore, they're still good bread. So we drop it by a dollar a day just so that we can give people a discount and also get the bread moving. So like with Akimbo and Alex Bakes, they'll last like five to six days and you're basically getting bread at half price. It's really good sourdough with amazing ingredients. And yeah, it's. It works for everybody that way. So that's one thing we do that we try and, you know, help everybody because we're. If we get to like the six days, we're losing, but that's okay. The bread's still getting out there and it's being eaten and that's the important thing.

Jo: And I mean, it's still better than putting it in the bin.

Nada: 100. 100. My mum would turn in her grave if I was throwing bread out because she went through starvation. And you know, if you were disrespectful to bread in any way, you heard about it big time. So, yeah.

Jo: So, like, my last question is a bit of a doubter.

Rane: Oh, no.

Jo: Like I kind of wrote neo Nazis, wtf? And I guess it's been something that's been in the undercurrent of Melbourne and I mean like fascism on the rise globally. But just in the last few weeks, it's very front and center in our news cycle and like the events of August 31, with like Camp Sovereignty being invaded. And I know that one of the things that we're not meant to do is give them more power by like elevating the level of threat and presence, but also seems like something that shouldn't be swept under the rug and seems like something that is going to be a part of our everyday life, especially if you are going to protests and like seeing this stuff, like face to face and also seeing how the police are dealing. Do you have thoughts?

Nada: I have many thoughts. So I feel that there is a problem. Our systems are not helpful. So we're living in a capitalist, patriarchal, colonized system and it's not great for the world. It's actually killing the planet and us. A result of that is that a lot of our youth, especially males, are getting Lost. And I feel that we are best to not give any oxygen to the fascists and the neo Nazis and to keep connecting with people and keep building. Like one of the things that we're going to do when we get the group space happening is I'm going to facilitate and hopefully I've got a few men that want to run it men's groups, because I'm sorry Ron, but I, I don't know what's happened with men. They're just their loss and it's heartbreaking and that's why they're easily taken to this side of the world. You know, come and be a Nazi, come and be a racist, come and be a horrible human being. If you do go into any of the protests with the anti genocide stuff, you will find, I don't know if you two have ever been. They're amazing, gorgeous human beings. They envelop you with warmth and love and the rallies are, I think, for all of us just, just keep us going because it's tough.

Jo: Like they've.

Nada: I've lost bookings because of my stance on Palestine. I've had customers walk in and say, ah, so you've knocked out your Jewish clientele. And it's like, no, we actually have a lot of Jewish clientele because they're not Zionists and they're not pro genocide. It's just the world is really tough and I think we've just got to keep leaning into love and I'm going to sound like a massive hippie, but we've just got to keep coming back to love and connecting with people and connecting with ourselves and connecting with nature. And that's what I'm trying to do. Create a space where we can do all those things and we just have to keep coming back to that and just starve them of oxygen. Just don't, don't look at them, don't see them because they're reaching out, they want to be seen. And it's not the way to behave on any level. At the same time, if you're being punched or whatever, you know, run away. But yeah, don't give them any oxygen is all I can come up with. And connect, connect, connect with each other and everyone and especially the kids, you know, try and hear them with compassion. And you know, usually if people are trying to tell you these arguments, they soon stumble because they're just full of bs, usually. And if you are curious and go, what do you mean by that? Like, do you realize that by having that Australian flag on your fence all of a Sudden is basically saying you're a Nazi to me. Are you aware of that? And, you know, if you question people like that, they'll be like, oh, no, no, it's because of this. And it's like, well, is it, why is it like that? You know, and just try and be curious and kind and it's really hard because some of the arguments are really stupid. But, yeah, that's, that's my thinking anyway. Yeah.

Jo: Because I think one of the things that I've noticed, it's led to a ramping up in police powers and that kind of like leads to a greater police presence at other events that aren't violent, that are like, worse for all of us.

Nada: Really. Yeah, yeah. I'm really disturbed by a lot of things the government's doing. I'm disturbed by our national broadcaster, who I used to, you know, I grew up as a lot of us did, you know, thinking it was unbiased and presenting the truth as best they could. And I am realizing more and more that it's not because the propaganda that's thrown to us every night, like the amount of times I've yelled at the news and said, it's not a war, it's a genocide, it's not a war, it's a genocide. And, you know, they keep presenting Israel's side of things and it's like, why, what the hell? And so, yeah, I am very disturbed by that. But the only way we can fix that is by becoming political, becoming activists, you know, do the best you can. I'm not a Green, but there are a hell of a lot of really good people in the Greens trying to do a really good job for transparency. I'm a fusion party member also a bunch of really good people doing some really good stuff. The government has tried to get rid of small political parties because they benefit from the monopolies, the two party system. And, you know, just get up, be active in politics, be active in what you can. Just don't be afraid to say things. That's what we're being, what they're trying to do to us. They're trying to shut us up and here, you know, hear the batshit stuff that comes out of people's mouths because sometimes there's always truth in everything. You've just got to try and find out what that person is trying to say and just kindness and love again.

Jo: And I think sometimes people don't realize as well. Like, there's a lot of ways to get politically involved. Like I've, I've been a member of the Greens and I've done letterboxing for the Greens and if you don't want to talk to anyone but you want to help in some ways, it's such a chill way to do it. Like you can listen to a podcast. Just a letterboxing. Everyone who you like, deal with is going to be really lovely.

Nada: Absolutely.

Jo: It's very much based on your capacity. Like if you can only help a little bit for a few hours, like people are still really grateful and really appreciate it.

Nada: And it doesn't matter what the political parties are, we just need a bit more diversity because having the two party system is, is killing us all and it's not okay. And they're just getting more powerful and more dictatorial, I guess. Yeah.

Jo: And Labor's just moving further and further to the right where it's like, is it still a two party system? Like they seem to be aligned on the wrong side on most of the. That I care about.

Nada: Absolutely. And like they, you know, they said they were going to do all this stuff for the environment and they've done the opposite. And it's just, it's infuriating and distressing because we can see that the planet's about to implode and I think Mother Nature's just going to get jack of us at some stage and just go, nah, the dinosaurs were a mistake, you lot were a mistake. I'm starting again and I would rather that didn't happen because it's not just going to be us that's going to go. It's all the other animals and all the beautiful things that make this world stunning.

Jo: And so I guess to leave happy note. Yeah, I know. To leave people on a positive note because I think one of the things that's just come through a lot from what you've been sharing is the little things that become big things.

Nada: So. Absolutely. Yeah. Just, just go out there and do, do what you can. And you know, a lot of possibly the Neo Nazis think that they're doing good stuff and maybe they are. I doubt it, but maybe they are. You know, talk to them, see where they're coming from and be prepared to hear things that make you uncomfortable. I think we're all, what is it the echo chamber thing? Like we all want to hear stuff that makes us feel comfortable. You be uncomfortable.

Rane: I'm going to not agree with that.

Nada: Okay, cool.

Rane: I've actually been told to leave and been assaulted by Nazis, so.

Nada: Whoa.

Rane: Yeah, back when I was a teenager, so.

Nada: Okay. Yeah, okay. Maybe don't talk to us.

Rane: I'M gonna stay away from it.

Nada: Yeah. Stay away from the next season.

Rane: Yeah, I understand what you mean, but I think some. If someone has an opinion that you don't have the right to exist, it's pretty hard to.

Nada: And there is. You're right. There is a lot of indoctrination and people that believe that certain people shouldn't exist. And that is. Yeah, that's a hard one. That is a hard one. But still. Yeah, if you can listen to that as well. And. Yeah, because it's through them talking to you and trying to convince you that they'll hear their arguments and when, like, if they can convince you that you don't have an exact right to exist and maybe, you know, they're right.

Rane: Yeah, I mean, I. I mean, I think hopefully we can speak to people before they get to that.

Nada: Fingers crossed. Yeah. Yeah.

Rane: And I have a nephew who is possibly at that age now where he's very impressionable, probably online quite a lot, and I do genuinely worry for him. So.

Nada: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. And, yeah, I think that's one of the things I want to do coming back to the Dragonfly is we want to create a space for young people as well and get them to connect with each other and talk to each other. Because I think it's the. The more isolated we become that we do fall into those Nazi wormholes. And, you know, because people are going, yeah, yeah, connect, connect. And, you know, when you're young and alone, you're going to fall for that.

Jo: Bs or even, like, when you're young and you want to go online and, like, look up fitness or something. How much of a pathway, the most unrelated seeming topics can kind of segue into.

Rane: Yeah, I think, you know, Hassan Piker, he. He kind of mentioned that every single kind of male activity, you know, common male activity, is kind of been taken by the. Right. Yeah. And it's. Yeah. Which is kind of weird, really. Like, you know.

Nada: Yeah, the world is a very weird place at the moment, but I think it feels like we're rearranging the room and we've taken everything down and we're, you know, we're trying to work out what we're gonna keep and what we're gonna throw out, and it's just very messy. So I think we're at that stage and I have hope that we're going to be, you know, coming out of it soon with a really beautiful world. It's just not that space at the moment.

Rane: Yup.

Nada: So not that space at the moment, I guess.

Rane: Actually one thing I was a bit curious about. Could you tell us a little bit about the fusion party? I'm not super familiar with them.

Nada: Okay. So I have not been an active member for a little while because Cafe Baby, they're a party that came about because the government tried to get rid of small parties and so they became a fusion of little parties. So they're the pirates from Queensland, the scientists from New South Wales Save the Planet, which is the. The party that I was originally part of. Bryony and Adrian set that up and they're the most beautiful human beings. And I think another two environmental parties got together to try and counter what the government was trying to do. So they've got some beautiful policies. The pirates rock. I love saying that I'm a pirate now because they're part of us, we're part of them. And yeah, it's really challenging trying to get all those people with different ideas, but they're really good people as well. And like I was saying before, it doesn't matter how many political parties there are, we all want to have our voices heard. So, you know, the socialists are also have some amazing political opinions and you won't agree with all of them. Same with the Greens. I don't agree with all this stuff, but you know, they're on the right track and the planet is huge. And yeah, I've got some friends stirring me and saying I'm going to become a Green because I'm hanging around with them so much and they're really lovely people, so who knows. But yeah, it's okay to talk about politics and we just need to be okay with listening to each other and actually hearing each other. And yeah, I think we just need to listen to each other, which can be really hard because once you feel like you're being heard, you start to go, oh my God. And then you don't hear anyone because you're so absorbed with telling people about yourself. And active listening is really, really challenging. And maybe we need more courses and you know, sitting down in school learning how to actively listen and. Yeah, it's tricky. That's tricky. I don't know. Have I answered your question?

Rane: No. Yeah, that's good. I think I know a little bit more about them now. Yeah, no, thank you.

Jo: Active listening is actually something that doing the podcast has, I think, opened my eyes to how rare it is to sit down and have like a fully focused hour long conversation with someone without also watching TV or eating food or doing all of those other things to just like, make the conversation the full focus.

Nada: Yeah, yeah, we don't do that anymore. And it's like, you know, in the olden days, when I was a kid, people used to drop around for cups of tea, and you just sit down, you'd have a cup of tea and talk, and that was it.

Jo: And I talked to my teenage friends, like, on the phone for hours that I'd just seen that day.

Nada: Yeah, we don't do that anymore. It's weird. It's really weird. And maybe we need to get back to some of that stuff again. And, yeah, hopefully I'm creating a space where people can do that and it's happening like this. Some of the conversations that happen in the space, I'll be just flitting in and out and hearing snippets, and it just makes my heart sing because, you know, there's people that would normally not have conversations connecting with each other. And it's. It's beautiful.

Jo: Oh, it's so nice.

Nada: It really is. It really is.

Rane: I think we have one more question, so. A question. We ask it at the end of every episode, so. And I'll try to tailor it just for you. So I guess if you could distill everything that you do and, you know, everything, I guess you hope and aspire for down to one core essence. And I get a. Get a feeling you've probably touched on this already. What do you think that one thing would be?

Nada: I think it's connection. I think that's the key to everything. Connection with yourself, with nature, with each other. I didn't get around to talking about it, but art, I feel, is what we innately do as humans. And that's why there's a big art bent to the space. Connecting through everything with art. Connecting, just connecting. It's everything. That's it. Art is about connection. Connection's about art, and it's about everything. So does that make sense?

Jo: Absolutely.

Nada: Yeah.

Jo: That was really beautiful. Thank you.

Nada: Thank you.

Rane: Thank you so much.

Jo: And thank you for everything you do.

Nada: Thank you. Thank you for supporting me.

Jo: My pleasure.

Nada: It's a beautiful thing.

Rane: Thank you so much for tuning in to the podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Nada. We've included the links for her website and social media in our show notes. For more content and updates. You can find me on Instagram as arnlovesyoga and Jo can be found at Garden of Yoga. We love connecting with our listeners, so don't hesitate to reach out and share your thoughts. We'd like to express our gratitude to Ghostoul for generously granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out gosoul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express. He aroha nui maua kia koutou katoa Sending you big big love.