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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane and this is the Flow Artist podcast. Together with my co host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. But before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode, we're speaking with Sasha Sigel. Sasha is a New York based yoga teacher who focuses on pelvic care, reproductive rights and queer community building. She's a co founder of Be Queer now and like us, sees social justice and activism as yoga in action. Sasha draws from Asana and pranayama practises to help create individualised yoga programmes that support people with endometriosis. She also supports people before, during and after abortion. And we talk about some of the ways that she can both reach people who need her help and keep herself safe in the current American political climate. Please be advised, we speak about many aspects of reproductive health, abortion and the very real safety concerns that LGBTQI people and people seeking an abortion are facing today. It's a powerful and inspiring conversation and we hope you enjoy listening. All right, well, Sasha, thank you so

Rane: much for meeting with us today. It's great to finally get the chance to chat with you.

Rane: Perhaps you could start with just telling.

Rane: Us a little bit about yourself and where you grew up.

Sasha: Yes, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on. I've listened to many episodes, so it's really great to get to talk with you live. So, yeah, I'm Sasha Sigle, she her for pronouns. And I currently live in Brooklyn or Lenape land. I'm originally from Wisconsin, which is Madison, Wisconsin, Ho Chunk Land, which is in the Midwest, near Chicago. I usually give that as a reference point, but I've been in New York for about nine years now focusing on yoga and Reiki, specifically for pelvic health and queer community building and have also the last few years been working as an abortion doula. So that's, that's my location in the world.

Jo: And so how did you discover yoga? Was it in New York or back in the Midwest?

Sasha: It was in the Midwest and I. So I actually went to theatre school. I got a BFA in acting. So that was my, my path and my dream. And interestingly, while I was in this acting training programme in college, my theatre professor said that my work and my general Person felt very ungrounded, as she put it, and suggested that I try yoga to kind of find my feet and find some stability. So I originally started practising for that reason and then of course quickly learned that there's so much more to love and study and explore with yoga. So that was my entry point. And then as I got to New York, I wanted to dive into more trainings and starting to teach. So it's been a very, very different starting place from where I've ended up with it.

Jo: I discovered yoga when I was at art school as well and. Yeah, yeah, similar story of, like, it started out being something I did in my spare time and then the two things kind of shifted and like now art is something that I do in my spare time and yoga is, I guess, my vocation.

Sasha: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's essentially how things have gone for me, that I at some point made a very deliberate change that I wasn't going to focus on theatre and art anymore in terms of vocation. And now I love going to the theatre and I've done some pedagogy in theatre of the oppressed. I've done work that feels meaningful but is certainly different from how I imagined my move to New York going.

Jo: It takes the pressure off when you're not trying to make a living doing.

Sasha: It for sure, big time. Yes.

Jo: And so, like, we were always planning to talk to you about reproductive rights and equity in healthcare and social justice, and when we started out planning this interview, like, things already weren't good, like you were an activist for a reason, but now it seems like with the Trump government, it's like a whole new level of dystopian nightmare. Like, how are you doing and how's your community doing?

Sasha: Yeah, thank you for, for asking. And dystopian nightmare is pretty much how I would describe it exactly. And in terms of the day to day, I sometimes feel quite overwhelmed with the onslaught of attacks and, you know, as we're going to be talking about specifically in the reproductive healthcare world, but across the board, you know, it's scary stuff, it's scary times. So sometimes I'm feeling overwhelmed, sometimes I actually feel quite numb and there's sort of a sense of confusion and chaos, which I think is very intentional to put us into those states. And I am seeing people kind of oscillate between those ends in my community as well, of sometimes feeling really clear with this work is important, this informs the next place we need to go. And sometimes feeling really down and overloaded and it feels Like a bit of a dance every week.

Jo: And I guess as a yoga teacher, like we have all of these practises to draw from to kind of help us through like times of chaos and turmoil and fear. And is there anything that you're personally like drawing from in your practise that's feeling helpful at the moment?

Sasha: Yeah, great question. I have recently started or restarted meditating every day. I. For many years I had a practise of daily meditation and during the pandemic, I. And just to say, of course the pandemic is still happening, but during the height and the beginning of the pandemic I got out of the practise and have sort of slipped in and out of it a few times, but I'm. I'm back in the. More grounding 10 to 15 minutes a day, whatever else is happening in the news and in the world. Giving myself 10 minutes to get steady, get breathing has been important and hard to do. Sometimes it just feels hard to sit down on the mat when I could be, you know, honestly scrolling and seeing the latest updates. So I. So it really does take some effort to, to carve out that time.

Jo: Yeah, it's a bit of a trap mentally because it feels urgent to keep up with the news.

Sasha: Right.

Jo: But it's always happening and I guess we're better equipped to deal with it if we do have that 10 to 15 minutes of like space and quiet before unleashing all, all of that from our phones into our brains.

Sasha: Yeah, yeah. I'm curious if you two. I know that, you know, the, the US certainly affects the whole world and that there are also specific challenges and struggles that you all are dealing with at home. How, how are things feeling for you and your community?

Jo: I've got to say, like, personally, our latest election, the Labour government, which allegedly is a more left wing government but is very centrist at the moment, one with an overwhelming landslide. And at the time a lot of people were really relieved because the Liberal government would be nightmare time. But the Labour government has been so useless and especially regarding Palestine and very much seeming to get on board with like being America's war buddy and not really addressing any of the issues that people here are dealing with. Like there's a housing crisis in Australia, there's climate change crisis, there's ongoing like racism and a lot of it's coming up around protests for Palestine and like much more draconian police powers. And then when it comes to dealing with indigenous Australians, like, there's been a couple of really high profile, like police violence Court cases and no effort that anything will change for the better. It's like this party that everyone was excited about just feels like they're doing absolutely nothing or going backwards. So that's. That's my state of mind.

Rane: Yeah, I guess. And I guess they kind of feel like because I won with such a landslide, it's like they don't really have to do anything. So. Yeah.

Sasha: Yeah, that's pretty discouraging. You know, I. It. While, of course, you know, there are problems particular to each country and each community, the global scale of violence and oppression is pretty unreal right now.

Jo: And I want to acknowledge as well, like, my personal safety is not at risk. Like, I'm in a really privileged position. So any stress that I'm dealing with is minuscule compared to people who, like, are facing that violence every day.

Rane: Absolutely.

Jo: I guess that. Oh, sorry. Just to swing back to your meditation question, it sounds like you came back to it after a long break and maybe from a headspace of not feeling particularly calm and grounded, like that's why you needed it. Have you just been setting your timer on your phone or are you doing like a guided practise? Like, what's helped you kind of with that re entry into a regular meditation practise?

Sasha: Oh, that's such a good question. So what I have been doing is I keep a little journal and I. And I choose to practise a particular kind of meditation for like one or two weeks. And I do it every day and I do. And I generally don't do guided. For this particular, like, morning meditation, I do set a timer and choose the meditation I'm going to do, which sometimes is more like a Buddhist lens meta meditation or vipassana. And I also have been working. There are some meditations that are particular to Reiki the. Which is a Japanese energy work that I also practise and I'm moving towards doing my Reiki masters or Reiki 3 training. So I've been also specifically working with some of those practises and really trying to get into them for a week or two weeks at a time.

Jo: Great.

Sasha: Yeah.

Jo: I like the idea of, like committing to something for two weeks and. Yeah, that sounds really helpful.

Sasha: It's more reasonable than forever.

Jo: And also good to acknowledge that, like, oh, maybe the first day you try it, it won't necessarily feel like it worked.

Sasha: Yeah, yeah. And giving yourself time to feel any shifts, any adjustments, especially when I know that I am in a more activated state. And so I'm not gonna get into my meditative zone as Quickly as I might have had the world not been falling apart. You know, it just, it, it needs more time.

Jo: Yeah. To quote Juvenile Heyman, I think this is in one of his books, but I love this line where he said that I don't think anyone actually feels like they're good at meditation.

Sasha: Right.

Jo: That's not what it's about.

Sasha: Totally. And it's really the, the doing of it, the practise of it again and again and again. Which, yeah, sometimes does not feel like much. It just feels like, wow, lot of thoughts going on.

Jo: And so to change topic a little bit, could you tell us a bit more about Be Queer Now?

Sasha: Yes. So originally Be Queer now started as a solo project. I had been teaching a queer and trans yoga class at a studio in person. And when the pandemic started, some classes moved online and the studio chose to discontinue that class. And so I started it as a weekly class that I let folks know who had been coming and then got to spread the word with social media and newsletters of place, place for anyone in the queer community to practise movement, asana, pranayama, reflection. And so we started to build this little community over time. And after, I think maybe it had been a year or two that I'd been doing classes on my own, I had connected with two other teachers, Elisha Kapoor and H.K. goldstein, that I really respected how they taught, but also worked in a collaborative way. We had worked for a sort of different yoga organisation together. And the things that I find really challenging to embody in a collective work environment, such as horizontal leadership or shared, shared leadership, you know, whichever way you want to describe that they were really good at and really interested in. And so I wanted it to be, yes, about the, quote, product of queer yoga classes, but also how we got there, how we communicated amongst ourselves, how we decided on programming and capacity and we all wanted to work in these like, value based ways that I hadn't gotten to in other spaces. And so that's really what's sort of brought us through everything. And we've had some changes. We recently scaled back our programming because we needed honestly more time to take care of our queer selves and partners and friends in other ways and still wanted to find gathering moments throughout the year, but not have it be quite as constant with the programming. So it's been a whole journey and we're in a really sort of sweet, gentle spot right now.

Jo: That's really interesting because it's actually something that I've heard from other activist friends. I'VE got to say often from my vegan activist friends, how people come to these causes for compassionate reasons. But sometimes the politics within activist groups get a bit messy or people feel like they're talked over or not heard or like get disillusioned with the cause because of the intergroup politics. What are some of the practises that you have in place to kind of set a framework where everyone does feel heard and you can come to these collective decisions, but like it's not three hours of talking before you have to decide to have another meeting. Because no one can decide.

Sasha: Oh my gosh, yes, yes, because I've been to those three hour meetings, you know, in other contexts and they're really demoralising and exhausting. So one of the. So we started before we were going to, you know, go live with a website or social media or, you know, going into the programming, we spent a couple sessions of, of meetings and this is all online because they live in other parts of the US as well, of talking about communication styles and how we would address conflict. So some very simple things, such as, do you prefer a direct approach to conflict? Such as, hey, the thing you said hurt my feelings. Can we schedule a time to talk about it? Do you want that via email? Do you want time to process before we meet? Like, what are the healthy versions of disagreement that can come into this? We also decided to work on a consensus model rather than a majority rule model. So essentially we, whatever decisions we make, we all three have to agree on and if we don't, then we gotta rework it until we do. And to say, you know, because we all three are coming from similar backgrounds and values and desires, I think we have an easier time coming to a consensus than perhaps, you know, a non profit board would have. But what we. We also all read Adrienne Maree Brown's Emergent Strategy and embody a lot of those principles, such as, I actually don't think this is originally her quote, but inch wide, mile deep, as in we're moving quite slowly but quite deeply. And I also have to say one of the reasons we've been able to do this is because we haven't been using it as our main source of income. That, that changes a lot and we wanted to take that pressure off of ourselves to be able to work in a slower, thoughtful, more communicative way and not feel like, ah, and now we can't pay the rent and da da da. So we've set it up that way intentionally knowing it would be really challenging to, to Bring a higher risk financial situation into play.

Jo: And that is one of the beauties of doing an online class. Like, you can do it from a corner of your living room. You don't have to be renting a studio to make this happen.

Sasha: Exactly. Yeah, it makes a big difference.

Jo: And I imagine as well, you probably have a financially accessible pricing structure set up for your classes as well. And like, if you don't have to make rent on a space, that also takes the pressure off, that kind of thing.

Sasha: Yeah, that's exactly it. And we, you know, we, we tried for a while doing tiered pricing of like having, you know, sort of three different rates. You can choose which one meets your financial situation. And eventually as we scaled back with programming, we said, like, let's just scrap that. We're gonna make it donation based. People can pay what they want, which can also be $0. And because we're doing more like seasonal events, we're okay with that. That would not work if we were, you know, if this was like our main bread and butter. But we fel. Had the opportunity to offer that to queer community. Also, in a time when there is so many more attacks, especially on trans healthcare, we were like, let's just slow things down. We all have different sources of income and we can open this up to create a little bit more ease for everybody who wants to come.

Jo: And like, it's fine not to answer if this is, you know, something you don't feel comfortable talking about. Did you notice overall how much money each session took in changed when you went from tiered to donation based?

Sasha: That's a great question. You know, thus far we've only had like two sessions in this model, so I don't know.

Jo: So another aspect of your work, which is the abortion doula ship. Dull a dong. I'm not sure which is the right word for that. So supporting people before, during and after an abortion. Could you tell us about like, what you do and maybe how does this type of support differ from say, support a friend could offer?

Sasha: Yes. So my. I'm excited about this question. And so some people unfortunately don't. Don't have friends or family members or community members who are willing to offer that kind of support, which is one of the main reasons why abortion, abortion doulas are needed. Unfortunately. I've worked with a good amount of people who I am the only person who knows what their situation is right now. Perhaps they have shared. Sometimes they share with friends, partners, family members, and the treatment they get in response is pretty heartbreaking from people that they love and care about. Sometimes people will plan to come with them and then at the last moment decide I actually disagree with what you're doing, you're on your own. And so they may not have access to people who will walk them through this. So that's one aspect. And then in terms of what actually happens with abortion doula work, you can first of all be a resource of accurate information. So there it's just so important. The disinformation that is being spread specifically by our administration in the US is absolutely out of control. There's a lot of anti abortion propaganda, just simply factually inaccurate quote facts floating around. So to be someone where if you don't know the answer to the question that they have, you can find it. You can, you know the organisations to trust, you know the phone numbers to call to figure out how to get this person the information that they need practical and emotional support such as providing childcare. Most people, I shouldn't say most, but nearly half of people seeking abortions already have kids. So they may need to arrange childcare which you could help with or be the childcare provider. They may need transportation to and from clinics or pharmacies, food prep, grocery runs and then the more emotional components of listening helping to process this decision or the experience of having a self medicated, self managed abortion or in clinic procedure. And another role that can be important and in particular would be such a great thing for the role of a friend would be to sit with a person while they have a self managed abortion, to give them a comfortable place to watch TV and go through the experience which for some people can be painful and there can be a significant amount of cramping and bleeding and just to have someone there with you while you're going through that can be really, really important and meaningful. And one thing that I always like to say about, you know, the potential role of an abortion doula or a friend in this situation is we have the, the potential to make this not a traumatic experience. There's, it does not have to be traumatic. It's a medical and health care procedure that can have many emotions attached to it, but the stigma is all being placed from the outside. And so if we're able to create a container where someone can have an okay experience that doesn't have added layers of shame or guilt that can really change how they process this part of their life and how they talk about it to other people and then you know, the, the ripple continues from there.

Jo: And just to clarify, like when you're talking about a Self managed abortion. Like that would be a medical abortion where you'd take pills, right?

Sasha: Correct. The general protocol is there's two pills and depending on, you know, the exact instructions that you get, you usually take them sometimes several hours or sometimes it's like the next day you take the second one. The first pill stops the progression of the pregnancy and the second pill helps create contractions so that the body releases the tissue. And that again can take a significant amount of time. It is at this point I'll just say for the US it is legal to mail those pills in all 50 states and if one is able to know that they're pregnant early enough, that's the trick of it all, that it's a 12 week, after 12 weeks it doesn't work. That is preferable for most people. To be able to be in the comfort of your own home, have your own timeline, you know, have a friend, all, all of that, but and, and hopefully requires a little bit less of logistical planning. Although for some people still taking off work, arranging childcare, all of those things can be really difficult. You may not have to add on travelling out of state to a place where in clinic abortion is legal. Airfare, hotels, all the things that come with it, you know, can just become such an intense and expensive process. So the self managed abortions or medical abortions are excellent when available.

Rane: Hey, it's Rane here. Just popping in to say thank you to our Patreon supporters. Your continued support means the world to us and we are incredibly grateful. By joining our Patreon club for as little as $1 US a month, you can help us cover the cost of editing and producing the podcast. Patreon members also get access to some great bonus content. Sasha has generously shared a gender inclusive yogic guide to pelvic health with our supporters this month to join a collection of wonderful contributions from past guests as well as practises from Jo and myself. If Patreon isn't your thing, there are other ways you can support us. Simply sharing this episode on social media, reviewing us on platforms like Apple podcasts or Spotify, or even just reaching out to let us know your thoughts and feedback means the world to us. All right, let's get back to our conversation with Sasha.

Jo: And so how, like how many days, if everything goes smoothly, do people usually need like, care and support until they're feeling no more pain, you know, ready to go back and do all of the regular things that they did in their day?

Sasha: That's a great question. And it depends a lot on for Example if people are taking the pills, if they're having an in clinic procedure that's earlier or later in a pregnancy, for example, depending on what the timeline is. Some clinics are able to. It's just a one day procedure that you can go in and the actual procedure takes about 20 minutes. And then you may need to, I mean certainly that day and the next day if possible to have rest and care is ideal. Some people will have bleeding for up to three weeks which can be a lot to manage. So also just setting people up with the expectation of how long the full process may take. But the, the sort of hurt of the care would be one to three days I would say.

Jo: And so this is I guess not an evidence based question necessarily, more of a personal experience question. I know that there are, there is evidence that shows like the more cortisol you have in your system, the more intensely you will feel pain. Like our emotional states and our nervous system and how our body responds to pain is all very interconnected. Have you noticed yourself like the difference in people's pain levels and say ability to sleep and just general sense of wellbeing is changed when someone does have support and care versus when someone is not only dealing with the emotional like aspect of the procedure itself but like sometimes fear for their lives. Right. In America, like that's the reality right now, unfortunately.

Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. There was a really fascinating study which was turned into a play which I saw. I think it was called the Turn Away Project. And they actually did measure over a period of I believe 10 years the stress levels, poverty levels, etc. Of people who received an abortion when they needed one and for people who were turned away. And so for the folks who were turned away then they, in those cases they did then continue with the pregnancy and have a child. And it was a really, really fascinating study that in kind of a beautiful way showed that in the long term over you know, 10 years, people who got the care they needed versus were turned away for the care they needed eventually that their happiness levels and poverty levels stabilise. But especially that first period of time, like the first few months, I'm not exactly sure how long it was that it makes a huge difference in the amount of money they make. The, and thus the poverty level, they're experiencing the other like health outcomes, levels of depression that they were all higher in people who received the treatment. And, and I would say, you know, anecdotally then it makes a really big difference of how you received that treatment if you had support or not. Because everyone should Be able to have the care that they need, the health care that they choose to access. And also if you have someone supporting you, giving you space to talk things through, of course, that makes a huge difference in exactly what you were saying of stress levels and processing it. So one of my favourite stories to think of is that there was a person that I was accompanying after her procedure and just picking her up from the clinic. And some people are in pain, and so, you know, what they need is rest and a heating pad and a place to lie down. Some people really feel fine, and she was feeling fine. And she had never been to New York before, and so she wanted to go get a slice of New York pizza and, like, take photos in front of the skyline, you know, And I was like, great, let's do that. And just to say how diverse the experience can be of what it is that that person needs and whether it's more emotional support or like, having an okay day, having an experience. And last thing I'll just say about this person was that they also were someone who had kids. And so they were like, I want to buy a souvenir for my kids for New York. So I was like, haggling with the, you know, shop owner and things like that. And it was just, it was such a nice moment to think of, like, wow, this could be such a. An integrated experience in this person's life that didn't have to be upsetting or stressful. She could go home and be with her kids and give them little New York City bears and, you know, things like that.

Jo: And so, like, the work that you're doing is obviously important and necessary and people need to be able to find you. And it sounds like she found you from another state, but also, like, are you concerned with your personal safety at all? Like, I know that there is violence directed at people who are pro choice and are making abortions possible for people or supporting them through it. Like, how are you finding that balance of being findable enough for the people who are looking for you for the right reasons, but also keeping yourself safe when there are people out there who, yeah, might be putting your personal safety at risk?

Sasha: Yeah, it's really important and it is a really tricky balance. I mostly work through a volunteer organisation that connects you with people who need that service or that support. So we're. I get the information of, okay, this person needs to be picked up at this place at this time, and I go meet them there. I may not ever know their last name, they might not ever know mine. Sometimes they're you know, coming back to, to my home to rest, sometimes I'm just bringing them to the next place that they need to be. And so we do our best to use signal for messaging, which is the most encrypted of messaging platforms. All of the digital evidence, trying to delete messages once that person has had their needs met. Not use email, use DuckDuckGo for searching, clearing your history. Just trying to limit the digital trail of this work. I also, I mean clearly I'm speaking to you on a podcast, so I'm fairly public about it. But in terms of details, I'm quite careful with who I share any kind of detail with it. They say that it's most likely that the person who, or the, that the reason an investigation starts is because someone, you know reports you and that could be either the person receiving the abortion or the person assisting with that. So kind of knowing who to trust, who to not trust. And then lastly also with healthcare providers, I always like people to know that you never have to tell them that you're having an abortion or, and by that I mean if you were having an abortion and you then needed to go to seek medical treatment because maybe there were complications or there was too much bleeding, which just to say is quite, quite rare. But if that were the case, you never need to say you're having an abortion. You can say you're having a miscarriage or that you're bleeding a lot and you don't know why. So you, even if you've taken the abortion pills, there's, there's no traceable evidence of that in, in the body after a few hours. And so unfortunately healthcare professionals can report to the police. And so trying to get all of our bases covered so that you know more so that the abortion seekers stay safe. And of course I try to keep myself safe as well. I know my risk levels are potentially higher than, than others because of the more public facing element to this work. And I, you know, I'm okay with that with, you know, knowing that there are real risks that come with that. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really an unfortunate element to have to think about. But yeah, trying basically trying to be as careful as possible and, and not kidding ourselves knowing that there is risk to it.

Jo: Yeah, thank you so much for everything that you do for women and everyone who finds themselves pregnant who does not want to be. Like I want to say as well, for our listeners in Australia, like, while the situation in America is really different, like abortion access was election issue in Queensland. And I recently read that in New South Wales, only three public hospitals offer surgical abortions. So it's a pretty fine line between this being a safe and accessible procedure for everyone versus, like, one changing government. Suddenly, it's completely different.

Sasha: Yeah. I was also, I was reading a little bit about Australian laws and access to abortions, and I saw that for a lot of. I think oftentimes, depending on the number of weeks the pregnancy has progressed to that one of the main stipulations is that there have to be two doctors to sign off on. On getting an abortion. And I thought, I. As far as I know, we don't have that in the US But I was just like, wow, that's very specific to have to have two doctors agree that you can have this medical procedure.

Rane: Crazy, isn't it?

Jo: Yeah.

Rane: And I get this. This question's completely out of left field, but I'm just wondering, you're in New York, right? And there's been a bit of news around. Is it Mandani running for mayor?

Jo: Yes.

Rane: Is that a bit of a ray.

Rane: Of light for you, I hope.

Sasha: Oh, my goodness. It is a. It is a beautiful, beautiful ray of light. I. I'm very excited about the possibility. So. So just to say he. He's the Democratic nominee for mayor, and unfortunately, Eric Adams and Andrew Cuomo will be running against him because they registered as independents, which I think is hilarious. In a derogatory way. I think it's hilarious. So I'm really hopeful that Mamdani will win. And it really. I mean, he's a Democratic socialist. He's.

Jo: This is.

Sasha: I. I was looking it up. I think there was maybe one other. No. Maybe there. Actually. I'm not sure if he's not the first Democratic Socialist to be mayor in New York City. He's like, the second. So he's not there yet, but I'm really. I'm really hopeful. And. And, you know, just to say it's also unfortunate the amount of attacks that have been aimed at him since he, you know, got. Got the nomination. It's just. It's good and it brings up the worst in people also.

Rane: And. And I don't know, the fact that he's always having to, I guess, make that, you know, always having to restate the fact that he doesn't support anti Semit, you know, anti Semitism and. Yeah, just sort of. I know. It's a bit tiring, isn't it?

Sasha: Okay, I'll tell you something. And it's so sad because I was at a Pride picnic. This was at Pride and we were, I was talking with a small group of people and someone was wearing a Mamdani pin and we were like, yay. Like so exciting. The Zo Run one. That's so great. And someone was like, did you hear though that he doesn't like Jews? And we were like, oh my God, no way. No way has that narrative infiltrated this like progressive, queer little picnic. And you know, luckily a lot of people spoke up to that of like, well we all know that being pro Palestine is not the same as being anti Semitic. And he in fact has been very specific with creating policies to address anti Semitism and end a genocide, both things. So yeah, it's. Yeah, it's really, yeah, it's, it's really.

Jo: Too bad so to, to swing back to reproductive health and I mean all stuff is kind of connected. Like it's all human rights and.

Sasha: Exactly.

Jo: Yeah, I know that. Another thing that you do is your Yoga for Endometriosis programme. Do you want to start by giving us like some insight into some of the full body effects of endometriosis? Because it's a very under educated condition. Like I know that like seven years is the average amount of time from when people start seeking a diagnosis to when they actually get it. So there quite possibly are people walking around with endometriosis at the moment who don't know why they're feeling so terrible.

Sasha: Yes, absolutely. And so as, as you were saying, it's an extremely long path to diagnosis. And right now the sort of conservative estimate is that 1 in 10 people with uteruses have endometriosis. And also knowing how often it is not diagnosed or misdiagnosed, we can only kind of imagine what like perhaps the more realistic statistics would be around that. And so just to say that endometriosis we generally think of as a chronic illness that's currently not classified as an autoimmune disease, although I personally believe that someday it will be. Then the general symptoms are having extreme lower abdominal pain, back pain, leg pain during menstruation, but also it can be not during menstruation, pelvic pain, fatigue, bloating and inflammation, connective tissue problems such as scar tissue, bladder and bowel issues. And they've also discovered that endometriosis is often correlated with many other autoimmune diseases or illnesses such as migraines, ibs, anxiety, depression and. And the sort of bad rap that it gets is it's, it just means you have a bad period, which I, I would like to say, yeah, I do have a really bad period and I have all of these other things that, that happen every day or every week. And that we've also been conditioned that having a bad period is normal and isn't a big deal, when in fact, if you're having a period with levels of pain or heavy bleeding that causes you to miss school or miss work, you have to shape your life around your period that is not normal. And it may be common, it may happen to a lot of people, but it's showing us that there's something else, there's something going on underneath that. And so endometriosis is a possible cause for that. And the other thing I, I like to like to a little factoid to share is that in the late 1800s there were mass misdiagnoses, they called it hysteria, witchcraft and demonic possession, which now we believe was likely endometriosis and a response to the intense pain that people were experiencing. And even though, you know, we're talking about the 1800s and certainly there were documents before then, it's still considered a mystery disease. So there's also just not enough research, not enough treatment options and at this point, no cure.

Jo: And so I guess that's where using yoga as a supportive practise might come in. Because, like, to my knowledge, the treatment options are surgery, so getting tissue removed and often that can come back, like medical pain relief. And also some cases, like maybe having a hysterectomy or something like that, which I have also heard, while it can be helpful, it should definitely be an option for people who feel like it's the best, you know, course of treatment for them. It still doesn't necessarily stop your endometriosis. Do you want to talk a bit about how the practises that you share with people can be like part of their treatment and their self care and like what kind of things you find are helpful and maybe how it might work in with other medical treatments that people might be having.

Sasha: Yeah, yeah. And you know exactly what you said, that the sort of gold standard of treatment is excision surgery, which is removing the, the tissue. You know, it's. Endometriosis is essentially tissue growing where it should not be growing. And so the surgery removes that tissue and then there is the risk of it coming back. Some people manage it also through hormones. People use hormonal, birth control, IUDs and, and also pain management with medications, as you were saying, and hysterectomy sometimes is offered and it's a, it's a complicated one. Because as you were saying, it doesn't necessarily get rid of the endometriosis, it does get rid of that organ. And so sometimes it's better indicated if someone has adenomyosis, which is when that tissue is growing inside the uterus rather than outside and around the uterus. But again, it's a very personal decision. So yoga, my feeling is, can complement any of those approaches. And one of the main things we're working with is our nervous system and how do we respond to the onset of a flare up or pain. What practises do we have to support ourselves in menstruation or whenever someone's likely to experience more pain. And sometimes what really adds a layer of unnecessary suffering is muscles contracting and guarding against anticipated pain or the like very beginnings of a flare up. And so if we can work with our nervous system to retrain the brain to body connection of like, we actually have other options here beyond muscle guarding and tensing that can make a big difference in terms of how people experience flare ups. So of course you can do that through asana. Breathing techniques, pranayama are really helpful in particular I think for nervous system regulation. And we're also looking to bring more mobility and circulation to the pelvic region. One of the things unfortunately that can happen with endo is that sometimes organs can sort of adhere together because of these implants. And so everything becomes quite constricted. There's not as much movement as we would like. So we can do, for example pelvic tilts help very specifically bring blood flow into this area to help create some more movement where there is the possibility of movement in that part of our body. And also working with scar tissue because there can be a lot of scar tissue when the body tries to shed this, the implants or the tissue every month with menstruation. And it can't because it's outside of the uterus. And so there becomes scar tissue from this cycle of like trying to shed, not being able to shed. And we can work with mobilising and creating some more ease where there can be some pain and tension because of that. And then lastly, just to say a lot of us experience fear avoidance due to anticipatory pain from movement. So sometimes folks really feel scared to do any kind of movement because it could trigger pain. So we're trying to teach our body, look, there are ways that you can move that don't trigger pain and maybe even ways that actually help relieve tension from certain areas of the body. So we work a lot also with like finding Soothing movement, matching breath and movement, longer stretches that focus on adductors, abductors. We can look at the pelvic floor and how we can get more acquainted with those muscles in particular and help them find more release and relaxation. So those were a lot of things, but those are, those are some of the things we focus on.

Jo: Yeah, I know often you kind of mentioned nerves, but like sciatica is another really common endometriosis side effect. And because of course that big sciatic nerve is going all through the pelvic floor area and I mean even just in terms of like back pain, that's not connected to endometriosis. I know that that anticipatory pain and like that muscle guarding tension held in the body can then just push on that sciatic nerve and send like nerve pain down your leg. And it can be that cycle of doing less movement, feeling more tight, and then having more pain when you do move. So like having practises that can kind of reset that cycle, I could imagine would be very helpful.

Sasha: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. And we'll talk about the, the pain cycle of sort of that trap that you were describing and how can we shift to the relief cycle of finding movements that interrupt that pattern and that cycle and we get to change, you know, the whole rest of, of the circle from that point. And you know, the most important thing to me about all of this is that I like to call it sort of like a sampling platter where it's like we're going to try all these different things and as we know, there's no one size fits all. So people get the opportunity to experiment with what helps their pain the most. And then if they need to use it at three in the morning when they're lying in bed in pain, they can do that if they can use five minutes while they're, you know, taking a break from a meeting to prevent a flare up. Like they. There's such specific tools that can be integrated into daily life. That feels really important.

Jo: So I guess I have another question for you. This is potentially a pretty expansive question that touches on a lot of the different things that we've spoken about because a lot of advocacy, advocacy work and activism, like you are in a helpful phase of it, but it can come from a place of anger and a like, place of anger that like the world is not as it should be and there is injustice. And I like this quote from your blog. Anger is one of the most feared and neglected emotions in spiritual spaces. It's often labelled as Low vibration, something to be avoided, suppressed or transmuted into more palatable emotions. But in our current society, where violence, fascism and injustice run rampant, anger is an essential tool for surviving and reshaping our world. This is my defence of anger. Anger is a powerful teacher, a catalyst for change and a natural human experience on any spiritual or activist path. Would you like to unpack that a little bit more? Yeah.

Sasha: Yes, I would. Yeah. So as we've been talking about, you know, all these different violent and oppressive acts that we're either experiencing firsthand or witnessing happening to people close to us in our community or hearing about, seeing on our phones across the world, that I would really hope we find a way to let ourselves experience anger along with all of the other emotions that come up of grief and dread and anxiety. And my experience in the spiritual world, both within my yoga practise and my Reiki practise, is that we are sometimes very. Sometimes implicitly discouraged from feeling or expressing or naming anger, and sometimes very explicitly discouraged from it. And my sense is that anger can be incredibly helpful and useful, that it points to something is not right, something is being threatened that we care about and we need to pay attention to that. And if we're able to use it as a way to understand what's happening in our lives and in our world, and then what's the next best action? What's the next step that we take using the information that we've gotten from this emotion? And so that has to involve exploring it and feeling it and expressing it in some way rather than suppressing it. My fear is that some spiritual teachers will use spiritual bypassing as a way to keep folks only focused on their internal experience, turning down the volume on what should be anger coming up or grief coming up, and that also turns down the volume and the experience of everything else that's happening in the world. And who benefits from us tuning out, turning down the intensity? My feeling is that it's the powers that want us to be quiet and be small and not stand up for ourselves and other people. And so, yeah, I'd be curious to hear how anger has been talked about for either of you in terms of your spiritual practises or communities, because I don't think it's talked about that much. So I would be, you know, curious to hear if it's come up or. Or not.

Rane: Generally. Not much in my case. But I do remember I. I went to a. This is many years ago. I went to a meditation course, and as part of the meditation, he actually got us to sort of feel into our anger and sort of almost project it as a shield and sort of recognise the power in that, which I thought was actually kind of cool. Yeah. But other than that, I don't think it's even been mentioned.

Jo: Yeah. And it's definitely, like. It's something I'm working with personally as well. And how you kind of mentioned this a little bit, how often we might feel anger, but it doesn't necessarily register as anger. We might feel anxiety around the anger. Like, we might feel grief, we might feel shame. And because that is an uncomfortable feeling, we might do all these other things in our lives to, like, get out of feeling that way without actually addressing the reason why we might be feeling that way. And it could be a response to a global issue or it could be like a personal relationships issue. And this might be a bit of a reach. But I've seen. Can't name names because I can't remember. But like, a lot of studies about how much more likely women are to develop autoimmune conditions and things like that. And even for myself, I've, like, been working through some, like, digestive stuff. And so I don't think the feeling goes away. I think if we internalise it because we're not expressing it, it will just turn into back pain or digestive issues or an autoimmune condition, or we might direct it at someone else who actually isn't responsible for the action but might be in our vicinity. Or you might be suppressing it a lot and it might be an outburst that just comes out at that other person at another time who's not really the reason that you're feeling that way.

Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this. It's such a. A layered conversation because, you know, partly what inspired and I wrote about it in this blog post is that I went to a Reiki training where the. The teacher was really, really demonising and villainizing anger as an emotion. And what I think is so, you know, important in, like, the distinction that you're making and is we're talking about either expressing and feeling and processing an emotion or suppressing it deeply. And they have two very different effects. And, you know, this teacher, unfortunately, was. What I mean directly said that anger is one of the causes to cancer. And that is, you know, a pretty intense thing to say and pretty upsetting from my standpoint. And again. And so then, of course, I was like, I gotta go into the research. I'm gonna, you know, I gotta look all this up. And there are studies that show a. For People that suppress enormous amounts of anger that does have adverse health effects. The experience of having a feeling of anger has, is nothing, has nothing to do with adverse health effects. And so the question is, well, how do we do that? Well, you know, you know, what do we do to, to acknowledge and feel our anger? Especially what, you know, for people socialised as women, I think it can feel quite scary to even dip your toe into that and be like, how much, how much rage and anger is, is in there. Because I haven't been able to, to express it in, in ways that perhaps people socialise as men are. And so like very specific practises, you know, I found to be helpful of. Sometimes I will literally like scream into a pillow because it's New York City, so I don't want to scare anybody, you know, so I like put all the pillows, put all the pillows around me and, and, and scream or I go, there's, I used to go especially like a few years ago especially there's a rage circle for Gaza of. They have grief circles and they have rage circles and they're, you know, have a little bit of different feelings of being able to process like the intense anger at witnessing genocide and the intense grief at witnessing genocide. And we would do like writing prompts, we would make art. There's, you know, so many ways to interact with the feeling that does not result in harm in harming ourselves or harming other people. And I, I think that often is a fear of people's that, that like, if my anger is expressed it's going to hurt someone and, you know, it doesn't have to.

Rane: Nice. And that's. Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that. And I guess we've got one more question that we ask at the end.

Rane: Of all of our episodes.

Rane: So if you could distil everything that you've learned that you teach and share down to one core essence, what do you think that one thing would be?

Sasha: I was thinking about this in advance because I knew you did ask it, but I didn't come up with an answer. I was challenging, challenging myself to just, to just tune into it in the moment. I'm right now focusing a lot on sustainability of what are the practises that allow me and my community to move through this world and our relationships in ways that feel achievable long term. So I've, I, I think, yeah, the sense of setting ourselves up for, for the long game, you know, feels important and, and where I'm focusing a little bit now.

Rane: Beautiful. Thank you so much and thank you for all the. The ways that you serve your community. Community. It's absolutely wonderful to hear. You know, I feel like you're doing great work. So. Yeah, thank you.

Sasha: Thank you so much. I really appreciated getting to talk to you both and share about all this. And thank you for all the. The work you do and bringing on such amazing people into the podcast that I've gotten to learn so much from as well.

Jo: Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you so much.

Rane: Thank you so much for tuning in to our podcast podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Sasha. We've included the links for her website and course in our show notes. For more content and updates, you can find me on Instagram as @raneloves Yoga and Jo can be found at gardenofyoga. We love connecting with our listeners, so don't hesitate to reach out and share your thoughts. We'd like to express our gratitude to Ghost Soul for generously granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out ghostsoul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so, so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express here. Arohanui Maua Kia Koutou Katoa Sending you all big.