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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane Bowen and this is the Flow Artist Podcast. Together with my co host, Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. Before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. In this episode, we're speaking with Utkarsh Narang who asks the question, can fear push us to be courageous? Utkarsh tells us about his journey from running a successful physiotherapy business in India to moving to Australia. He also talks about how he and his family had to conquer the fear of the unknown as he changed careers, becoming a learning consultant, facilitator and content creator. We loved hearing his practical advice, but also how yogic philosophy forms the foundation of his life and work. It's a great conversation and we hope you enjoy listening. All right, well, Utkarsh thank you so much for chatting with us today. It's so great to finally get the chance to meet you. Perhaps we could just start with you telling us a little bit about your background and maybe what your life in India was like.

Utkarsh: Absolutely. It's. It's such a difficult questions to kind of introduce yourself on a podcast. Right. But for those who are listening, I'm right now an executive coach and I facilitate sessions for, for organisations and I have given a TEDx talk last year here in beautiful Mornington where I spoke about my journey with fear and how it led me to be courageous. And as you talk to me about this journey that we took from India to Australia, I still very vividly remember that day when we had those four tickets in our hand. It was like the first time going into a journey of almost like the unknown. Right. But. But growing up in India, life was really good. And people often ask me, Utkarsh, were there any traumas or were there any difficult moments? I just don't think so because, you know, as a, as a kid growing up in India, I was really blessed to have parents who are both doctors raised me and my sister really well. We had our own challenges, but who doesn't, right? And so somehow, through that journey, they made me the eternal optimist that I am. And if today I see a thunderstorm here in Melbourne and then sunshine six minutes later, I enjoy both of them. I enjoy both of them. But happy to have this conversation today. And see where we go together.

Jo: And so what made you decide to move to Australia? Because it sounded like life was pretty good in India.

Utkarsh: Absolutely it was. So see there are different balls that we tackle in life, right? One is relationship. You could build a career, you could have a family, you could have your personal health and so much more. And through our journey in India, I'll take us back, our listeners back 20 years to start where my professional journey began and then bring it how that move from India to Melbourne happened. So 25 odd years ago I got into a, a medical school. So I used to be a physical therapist, physiotherapist for some. And this happened because both my parents were doctors. So they were like that's what I saw when growing up, that parents are doctors, mom was a PhD, dad had his own clinic. And so I thought like that's the only way of life, right? You got to become a doctor too. And as a, as a kid growing up in India during the 80s and the 90s, you were told that, that there are only a few options in your career. You could either become a doctor or an engineer or if you're a family that understands law a little bit, then maybe a lawyer, but that's about it. And so my parents thought that being a doctor was a, was a good idea and I never disagreed Ran and Jo because it was something that I really saw and parents were always present. So I thought like that's a good way to, to have life. And so I became a doctor. But after a few years and we'll go deeper into this, I thought that it was not satisfactory to, to go through that journey and I wanted to do something else with my life. The story continues. It was 2020, middle of the pandemic where I was in that moment working a full time job with the company. But I decided to quit my job to start my own business. And 25 years ago I'd met during my, my college, my partner, my wife, who we are, we're still together. And so I often say the best thing that happened to me out of college was, was my wife and she's, she's still there with me, but she continued on her path. So she is an occupational therapist and she deals with kids with special needs. And so she had her private practise back home in India which was thriving. She had a team of 15 people, it was doing really well. But the energy and the intensity that is required to take care of families with special needs is intense. And that was leading for her to be drained physically Mentally, emotionally. And she was going through a very difficult phase of her, her life where she was diagnosed with depression, fibromyalgia, and also was unable to sleep well, so insomnia. And we were feeling like, what the hell is happening? Why is there so much outer success in our lives? Both of us were doing really well in terms of our professional journeys. We had two boys who were, who were growing really well. But in terms of her personal journey with her health, and then our relationship was all in a very difficult spot. And so we started to feel like the universe, please do something for us and get us out of here because we want to do something else with life and we want to have. Yes, outer success is important, but if the partner who's on that journey with you is not able to live fully, then that journey is not worth it. And so we were trying, we were making our struggles to go to North America, which is where my sister, her sister lives, try to see if Canada would be welcoming and invite us. But nothing was happening. And then one beautiful day, someone on LinkedIn reached out to my wife and said, we have a job for you in a place called Melbourne. And we're like, Melbourne. All I understand is that they have this amazing tennis tournament at the start of the year, Australian Open. I was a fan of the cricket teams, so that's about it, right? But we were like, this seems like there's something wrong here because why would they leave the whole of their island and reach out to someone sitting in Delhi and. But the universe has beautiful ways in which it operates. And so she went ahead with the interviews, everything sorted out, worked well. And yeah, we were on our flight to Melbourne in March 2023. So that's what led us to do that journey. I think it was part of escaping something that was a big struggle, but we were also very hopeful of what lies in the future.

Jo: So it just sounded like you really needed a fresh start.

Utkarsh: I think so. I think so. And you know, it's the impact of environment that we, Ranjo, we don't fully understand. At some time like, you know, you could be in a toxic culture, whether it's your workplace, you could have a family that's, that's in some, some very thoughtful way is broken and that pulls you down. You could have friends who are, who are telling you that this is not going to be good, this is not the right path for you to take and they're in their own non judgmental, unintentional ways pulling you down, but that kind of leads you to not Thrive fully. So I think that is what the shift in environment allowed us to do. Fresh start. And it was a very nerve wracking moment, right, because you land at this big airport in Melbourne, you, you say goodbyes to your families in India and you know that you have to take an Airbnb middle of the night to, to take a cab to an Airbnb middle of the night. And that's about it. But then what's after that? And so I think we, what we were able to do was a stick together. I think that really helped. And what was really also important was that we came here with young boys who were 12 and 9 approximately at that time, who found their tribe. So I think that was really important. And then just to go down one more path, which is coming to my memory a couple of years ago when, when we were here in Melbourne, December of 2023, I'd gone to this event hosted by, by a dear friend at the Immigration Museum here in Melbourne. And there was a very senior monk sitting there and I raised my hand and I asked him, sir, we come after like 40 years of living in India, making these deep friendships to this new land, Melbourne. Now, part of us wants to have that social connection, part of us wants to build friendships here in this new land. But it seems so difficult because those are people we have left who were in school with me, in uni with me, and I've kind of grown up with them. How do we make these new relationships? And his advice was, to me, I think, priceless. Because what he said was, mutkaj, there's one way that you can have all of that here again and that is to be selfless. I was blown away by that. And so every time my wife and I, we talk about social connections, talk about friends here in Melbourne, we say that we'll be selfless through that journey and we'll, we'll not give up ourselves, but we'll still be selfless to serve others. And that, that's been very helpful.

Jo: And so does that mean that you've done things like volunteering or just helping people in your community who you've noticed need it?

Utkarsh: Yeah, yeah. So the community is, I think one aspect that I'll be very honest is still missing. I see that, that in Australia, in Melbourne, there's a very strong sense of community that still is missing from, from our lives. Because with the, the busyness and the prioritisation that we have done, it, it takes a lot. But what I've at least at the minimum done is a We don't wait for friends to call us over. We say, why don't you come over for a dinner? Let's make some great Indian food, have a, have a good time. So that's one second to meet new people. I reached out to my connections and kind of publicly reached out that whoever is free for a lunch, I'm going to invite you to a pony fish island. There's this beautiful restaurant on the Yara, middle of the city. I love that place, love that their Portobello pizza. I tell them I kind of gave my link to, to, on, on social media, saying that whoever is in Melbourne and wants to have a lunch with me, I'll pay for the lunch. You just come there for a great conversation. I had about 15 to 18 conversations through that experience last year and many of them are still friends. So I think by taking some small steps that allow us to build those meaningful relationships.

Rane: Beautiful. And in your TEDX talk, you ask whether fear can push us to becoming courageous. Was there a particular moment where you realised that fear was not in fact a fierce enemy, but a dear friend?

Utkarsh: Yeah, it, it came through a lot of interesting reflection because I always thought that I've changed these careers, we've changed this continent from India to Australia. So we are very courageous family, we're driven by courage. And so to me, when I was given this opportunity to do the TEDx talk, part of me was like, I'm going to speak about courage. But then what I do, typically whenever there's like a beautiful big moment in my existence, I create like a WhatsApp group or some kind of social group of my very close friends who are like my inner circle. And I in that group shared like so. And so this is what I'm going to speak about. The TEDx is a big opportunity for anyone who wants to get their idea out there in the world and I'm going to speak about courage. And out of those 10 people in that group, nine were like, Utkash, that's a great idea. People still want to have conversations about courage because courage does not sit still, come naturally to us. One of them challenged me and said, bharut Kush, were you not fearful in those moments? How is your relationship with fear during that time? And I'm like, that's intriguing. Let me think about that and come back. And then, then I realised that every time when we are trying to move away from something to something new, there's some strong fear, which is a very natural human emotion, which is in many ways ignored, that allows us to feel fearful about that and fear it enough to allow us to make action. And to me, I think that was the moment when I started to kind of discover that, oh, all these while, like, all the, the steps that I've taken, all the actions that I've done, there was this strong sense of fear that was, in a way, driving me. And so, yeah, that's what became then the core idea of the TEDx talk.

Jo: And so I know that you work with a lot of entrepreneurs and small business owners, and I think for a lot of people who have their own business, maybe an opportunity comes long or like, there's a chance to put yourself out there a little bit more, and that comes with the fear of doing that. Like, there's always a bit of a risk with that, whether it's financial or just putting a lot of energy into something that doesn't pan out. And, like, all you really have is, like, your instincts to go on and maybe like, research that you do. So how would you navigate the balance between, like, trusting your instincts, trusting your gut feeling if maybe you are feeling some fear about an opportunity that could be good, could be bad, you don't know. And also kind of working beyond that fear or like, knowing, like, when do you listen to the fear? When do you push through?

Utkarsh: Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very fine balance. And to each their own. This is something that I often say that who am I to advise someone to take the leaps? Because your situation in life could be very different. Maybe you're listening to me right now and having this, and the three of us are having this conversation, and you'll feel that by the end of this conversation, I'm going to do something transformational to my life. I don't want anyone to take those leaps right now. But I think the whole idea is that, see, the first thing is the choice is always ours. For if I want to make a change in my life, which is maybe to do public speaking, and there's a very strong fear of public speaking in the world. Right. Or I want to build new connections. For example, I seem like an extrovert and I post on social media, or I come onto podcasts and have conversations, but I'm a big introvert. And like, after this one hour conversation with both of you, I need 15 minutes to myself to just recharge my batteries or maybe even more. And so when I first came to Melbourne, I was like, oh, I now need to meet new people, but I don't like networking too much. So what do I do? And I pushed myself to get to a networking event here in Melbourne. 70 people in the room, and part of me is like, what do I do with these people now? Like, I don't like small talk. I don't want to talk about, like, it's a bitsy stuff, have a drink, don't enjoy those things. So what do I do now? And then there was a friend there who said, utkash, when you see this room full of 70 people, don't worry about the 70 people. Find two people, have deep conversations with them, and that's about it. To me, that was a very insightful idea. So, so anyone who has any fears, I think the first step, you got to make sure that you understand is that the choice to move out and away from that fear is entirely yours. If you feel you're motivated enough, if you feel it is important enough for you, you can be disciplined enough and you can change things around, feel free to do it. The second thing is we sometimes feel that everything has to be like a big leap that you have to take, like a major shift to, to, to change something entirely. But there's always small experiments. Yes, public speaking is hard, so I don't expect us to go to the TEDx stage and start speaking, but maybe you can record a video and put it on social media. Maybe you can get, gather a group of 10 friends and talk to them about something impromptu. Maybe you can reach out to a podcast and say that can we have a conversation? So there's always small experiments that you can run as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, as a human being. So do that. And the third thing is, how will overcoming the fear serve you? I think it's an, it's, it's a very important question to ask that is it even worth for me to be driven by this fear, to become courageous? And, and the future is something that I speak in the TEDx talk as well. You cannot predict the future, right? But, but it's important for you to, to do all that you can in the moment, in the present moment, to act and move towards that, that future.

Jo: And so to kind of zoom in on one fear in particular, which I think is actually a really common fear for people, like the fear of public speaking itself. And as an introvert who now does a lot of public speaking, are there any, like, practises that have helped you or any like, maybe strategies that you do before you get on stage just to like, get in the zone?

Utkarsh: No, absolutely. I think it's a very relevant Question. And in these times, you know, it seems that if you're not a public speaker or if you're not out there, what are you really doing with your life? And just want to break that myth. That's not true. You could be having the best time on the beach with your kids, with your loved ones, with your family alone. And if that serves you well, go do it. You don't have to ever stand on that stage. There's, there's no need to do that. But if, if, if being on the stage gives you joy, if being on the stage is part of who you are, then absolutely go for it. There. There are two, three things that come to mind as we think about this. You know, the first thing is when you're preparing yourself to be on that stage, like, being on the stage is like, like the next leap to start preparing yourself. Just commit to a system. Because I think when we just say that, oh, I'm going to be on that stage someday, then, then becomes like a very vague action step for your brain. And the brain does not function in the right way. So someone who wants to, say, get into public speaking, they've never done that in their lives. I would recommend starting February 15th or March 1st, or whenever you listen to this, commit to 30 days of recording one video on your phone and putting it on social media, any kind. And don't worry about the likes and the comments and the, whatever happens after that. It is just a practise for you to get yourself out there, for you to get that feedback from almost yourself to see how you're recording, how you're speaking to the camera, how you're doing these things. So that would be the first one. Second is hone in on your message and look at speakers who you admire. I love to, to listen to Obama, for example, speaks really well. I love to listen to his old speeches, Denzel Washington, and there's some, some amazing people who you could listen to, like all day long, right? And so find those speakers who you really admire, who you think resonate with you, and study them and see what's, what's. How are they speaking, what kind of body language are they? So you got to become almost like the student of the craft to become better at it. So that's second. And then third, whenever that moment comes for you, when you get to. I remember very vividly we were backstage waiting to get onto that TEDx, the red dot, the stage, and there were like a hundred people in the audience. Part of me in that moment also questioned Utkarsh Why are you even giving a TEDx talk, man? Like, who's going to listen to your TEDx talk? But now about 6,7000 views on YouTube. A hundred people in the room when they reach out to me and say that, Utka, thank you for sharing that message. It meant a lot to us. That gives me joy. Right, so in that moment, when you're about to get on that stage, take a deep breath, live that moment fully. Because, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a special moment when you step onto any stage to share your message.

Jo: And so do you kind of have a lot of notes that you memorise and learn or do you be more spontaneous or mix of both?

Utkarsh: Yeah, it's, it's a mix of both. I mean, for the TEDx, I prepared like a, like a crazy person. I would say not, not less than that, because it was a, it was a big moment and, and the, the organisers are really very professional with the TEDx. Like, they were like, we want to go for like 100%. So I had a speaker coach who I worked with, lives in Frankston, so I worked with him for about three months to just put every part of the speech together to make sure that I knew it. But I do not, like, carry any notes because ultimately, every time I speak to an audience or for example, the three of us are chatting here, the message will come in the way that it has to come in the moment. So there's this spiritual concept of letting go in our religion and spirituality and it goes into different realms. Right. But you let go and don't try and control the moment too much. And so, yes, I have the notes in my head, I prepared for it really well. But what happens in the moment is absolutely in the moment. And when I now go and give corporate talks or keynotes, I do my preparation, but I don't know what stories will come out and I don't know how the audience will react and I don't know how I'll respond to them. So it's a, it's a more open conversation that I love to have.

Jo: We're both yoga teachers and a lot of our listeners are as well. And what you're saying, it actually sounds a lot like teaching a yoga class. Like, you can have a plan, you can have a bit of a structure, but you don't know how it's going to unfold, you don't know who's going to show up. Maybe they've got some injuries or maybe just the mood in the room. Isn't matching what you thought you were going to teach. So it's definitely that mix of like being prepared but going with the flow. And that was actually also I had our listeners in mind when I was asking you about public speaking because for a lot of new yoga teachers, like you love the practise and when you do your teacher training course, like you learn more. And for many people, like maybe they are naturally a bit more introverted or they're drawn to yoga to have like that connection to that quiet space within. So it's a bit of a shifting gears to suddenly speak to a room full of people when you know, maybe that hasn't been connected to their yoga practise at all in the past, but now they want to do this for a job. It's a big part of it.

Utkarsh: Yeah, it's, it's a big shift. And thank you for bringing that in because to me, yoga brings you to like a state of unison within your body, right? A state of flow. And then there could be different definitions of it, but when you're teaching yoga to someone and for all those who are getting into that zone, think of it as serving that room that is in front of you, right? Because then it takes off the pressure. It's not about you, it's not about them in a way, but it's about what is going to. And I know we're getting into that, that space, but I love this, this conversation where this idea of yoga transcends through you into them and you don't control that, you don't control that. You can just be there. But the way the asanas are going to done by your students or by you in that moment is going to be very different and fluid to say the least.

Rane: Would you like to do some yoga with Jo or myself? Of course you would. That's why I'm excited to let you know that we're now offering lifetime access to our online video library. We have over 240 chair yoga, aerial yoga, nurturing yoga and Pilates, Yin yoga, gentle yoga and self massage class videos for the early bird price of $89. Previously, these videos were only available to our monthly members, but we know the subscription model doesn't work for everyone. So we're excited to be able to share in this way. Just like our live classes, our videos all include multiple options for accessibility so that you can practise in the way that feels right for you. We also include options to improvise props if you're practising at home. We've Been getting some great feedback about these classes. You can check them out in the library section of gardenofyoga.com and there's even a few free samples there to help you get started.

Jo: Yeah, I think that's a great strategy and a great thing to remember. Like, it's not necessarily about you. Like, you're just sharing this wonderful practise of yoga and when it feels like things are really going well in class, it almost does feel like it's just flowing through you, rather than something that you're creating.

Utkarsh: Yeah, yeah. My. My speaker coach used to ask me utkash, and this was, I think, the first day where, where he said, utka, I'm not going to add anything to your speech. I'm like, then why are we spending time together? Because what will I learn then? And he said, but I don't know anything about giving a TedX talk. I've never done a TedX talk. He's. He's a. He's a toastmaster and he's 80, 80 years old and he's. He's amazing. Shout out to David if he's listening. So he said, utkash, all I'm gonna do is to sprinkle some gold dust on what you already have and that gold dust will help you shine. And that was so beautiful. And then his next question was, utka, what is this TEDx talk about? Is it about you, your message or the audience? And if I would have answered it is about me, he would have stopped coaching me, I'm pretty sure. So. So it's already about. About the audience, but how the message translates from you to the audience, because what you might perceive, Jo versus what rain might, would be very different from what someone else might. You have all these listeners who are listening to this podcast, they'll each get a very different message from the conversation that we are having.

Jo: Yeah, it's really true. You've touched on this a little bit. Like, you've mentioned how we cannot predict the future. And, like, that's something that's very true and very obvious, yet also very easy to forget and something that's very part of yoga practise as well. It's about our present moment experience. But we all have anxieties, or maybe we don't all have anxieties. Many of us have anxieties where, you know, you're playing out all these future scenarios in your head or maybe revisiting something in the past and chewing over that. Do you have any, like, practises that you do or, like, any ways if you notice that your brain is going to the past or the future to like, come back to that present moment.

Utkarsh: Yeah, yeah. I think it's very natural. And what you said, I think is absolutely true. We all have anxieties. And, you know, the level of anxiety could be different. It could be a 10 on 10 for some, or it could be a 2 out of 10 for some. But I don't think we can take our anxieties to zero. So I think your statement was accurate. We're saying we all have anxieties. Now what happens is that even my wife and I, we go for walks every day and we have this conversation where part of us like, what's going to happen to our son when he grows up? What's going to happen to this when that happens? And our brain keeps taking us through all these scenarios, Right. And then she and I have kind of come to a conclusion of thinking it in two ways. One is question, is it something that you can control? If the answer is yes, then go do that thing and change. If the answer is you cannot control and the answer is no, then don't worry about it. And in either case, you make progress in life. Right? There was this one night, it was Friday night, and I still have a lot of clients back home in India. And So Friday night, 10:30, I'm in bed, trying to go to bed, but there's a big webinar that I have the next week. And part of me is like, utkash, what's going to happen over that webinar? You've not done that deck yet. This is what's your message going to be? And this and that, like Utah, it's Friday night, it's 10:30, the whole of Australia is about to go to bed, hopefully, and it's and is asleep already. India is into their late Friday evening, so they're partying somewhere and they're not caring about your presentation right now. So you cannot do anything about it. If you can do something about it, then go to your room and go to your office, do it right now. But if you cannot, then just go to bed and sleep and that. Just this question, can I do something about it? Yes or no? That'll help you a lot. That just helps tremendously. And then the second big idea here is that, see, what's happened in the past is something that I cannot change. What I said at the start of this conversation, yes, someone can edit it out, but I've said it, so it will not change. The statement will stay and what I'll say in the future is something I don't know yet. And so all we have actually is this present moment, this, this moment when I'm thinking about something and speaking and sharing here with you. And so why worry about some made up future? And why worry about things that have gone by? I often coach people in the US and I open the conversation saying that, guys, I'm in Australia and so I'm in the future. You're stuck on your Thursday evening, I'm on my Friday morning and things like that. And then we have a good laugh about it. But yeah, and if I were to tell you the lottery numbers, in that case, you still might not win. And so it's very easy to get into these hypothetical scenarios almost of what the future is going to be and the past. And the big question here is, right, you and I, we can. This could be our final conversation and something might happen to both of you or one of you, or something might happen to me and I might die of a heart attack or I might have an accident or on the West Gate Bridge, a car might throw me into the Yara or something like that. Anything is possible. Even death is possible in any moment. So why worry about a future that still has not come to us? So to me, I think these three things really help to bring myself back. The brain still is a monkey brain. It jumps around it, it enjoys its own postures, but yeah, you can do what you can do to bring it back.

Rane: Nice. And I'm a big fan of Shahrukh Khan. And after watching your TED Talk, I had to go and watch him talk about being a phenambulist. I hope I pronounce that correctly. Or a tightrope walker. How do you think we can take that approach into our own lives?

Utkarsh: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a. I heard this interview of Shahrukh Khan. No, he was giving a, I think it was a, a commencement speech at, at some university in, in the uk. And I saw this maybe six, seven, eight years ago. But this idea always stuck, this word phenumbalist. And for our listeners, what it means is to be a tightrope walker. And if you were to imagine someone walking on a tightrope, you know, it's, it's really hard a first to walk on the tightrope in, in the forward direction. When you're hanging, say 30 or 50ft above the ground, it's going to be really hard. Anxieties are going to kick in, fear is going to kick in and it's going to tell you, like, don't walk, don't walk, you're not doing the right thing. But a, a tightrope walker does not stop or does not retract itself steps. I think that's why this resonates very deeply with me. And again, to the idea that the three of us were discussing just now, where you cannot think about the past too much, you cannot predict about the future too much. All you have is this space in the now, which again, based on your listeners being in, in the yoga practises, they'll understand the now. Always really hard to understand and bring yourself back. But on this tightrope of life, we cannot retract that space. Steps that we've taken, we cannot predict the steps that are in front of us and all we have is our rope and these next few steps that we can take. And that's where the idea of being a tightrope walker resonates very deeply in terms of life itself.

Rane: Beautiful. And I guess to switch gears a little bit, what is your definition of leadership or of being a leader?

Utkarsh: Yeah, it's a very complex subject. Right. Because leaders are required to do so much in, in the 21st century that, that it takes a lot. You know, one story that comes to my mind is this is from, from, from the us, where I think it was John Kennedy, the President, who was once visiting NASA and this was in the 1960s. And so he enters the, the. The. The place and he sees that there's a janitor there who's sweeping the floor. And in that moment he goes and asks the janitor. And janitor does not know this is Kennedy because they're busy doing their own work. And so President asks the janitor, what do you do here at NASA? And he's like, I'm helping NASA put a man on the moon. And that to me is the truest sense of leadership, right? That, that that person feels inspired enough for the common mission of the organisation and is empathetic and is listening and is able to, to magnify that to a way that, that inspires him to do, or her to do their best work every single day. To me, leadership is a really complex definition, but it comes down to being the best human that you can be. If we do really well in terms of the human beings we are, we are empathetic, we are listeners, we are strategic, we are learners. All of these ideas, if we can imbibe on our leadership every single day, we'll become great leaders. If you, if you study the great leaders of our times and see how they've operated, you'll gain a lot of these insights from them. And I think it's all about then being very consistent in putting these ideas into practise where you trust your people, where your people feel safe, they feel heard, they feel valued, they feel like that I would not work for anyone else but this person who's, who's a leader. And I was doing a session yesterday on, on this idea of love in leadership for an engineering company. And so these are all very structured, logical thinkers who feel like, why do we need love in the workplace? With guys like, what's, what's wrong with you? And I was having this conversation with them that if you build trust, if you're caring for your team, if you're caring for your employees, they'll care back for you and they'll do a tremendous job. They'll not, they'll not worry about you being there or not, but they'll do their hundred percent even when you're not there. So I think, to me, that's, that's the real definition of what makes us a good leader.

Jo: And I think maybe a lot of people these days don't get to experience that in their workplace. Like, there's a lot of expectations about how hard people are meant to push themselves for the company and not necessarily a lot of appreciation back or even a lot of security when people like working their hardest. So it's great that you're giving talks like that to leaders to encourage them to actually lead with compassion and with empathy for the people who work for them.

Utkarsh: Yeah, absolutely. And it does not take too much to be kind, to be appreciative. Right. And even if we're. The three of us are sitting here in, in this virtual room, I'm grateful for technology to allowing us to do this. I'm grateful on how amazing the three of us look. And I know listeners can't see us, but in our black clothes, we, the three of us look amazing. And that's. And that's it. We find joy in these moments and we appreciate each other for, for the good work that we do. I think, I think leaders need to make a conscious effort if they want to be the leaders again, again, up to them. Right. I cannot. It's like when you teach yoga, you cannot make someone do the, the downward dog perfectly. You cannot make someone do a specific posture perfectly. It is. You can guide them, but it has to come from them. And for everyone else also, you can guide people to be better leaders, but it has to come from them. So that's why I say that you have to become the best human that you can, which will allow you to be the best leader, that you should be nice.

Rane: And I guess when you're working with clients, what do you do specifically, or maybe not specifically, but what do you do to help people bring out these traits of leadership?

Utkarsh: I think, again, what I do in the sessions also is I enter and I check in with them. So, for example, I know the recency biases kick in, but I ask this question every time where I start the conversation. I say, the 30 people in the room, how many years of experience do you have at this organisation? And someone will say 5 and someone will say 8 and someone will say 15 and I'll add that all and I'll say, so that's about 200 years of experience in the organisation that you have on this side of the room. And here I am, I've entered you and your place just five minutes ago. So don't expect any answers from me because the answers will have to come from you because you're the expert in your organisation and you'll have to come up with the answers. So once I put this shift in energy where they're, they're feeling that, here's a speaker now who's going to give us like the God's message on how to become better leaders. But I don't have a message. The message has. So this power shift that happens from them seeing me as someone in, in a, in a higher place, to them feeling like, oh, this person is putting us into authority here, into the driver's seat here, into the, the pilot seat here. That's when great answers come out for them. And then I take them through activities and things where they start to feel like if I were to ask you who was the best manager who ever led you, no one's going to say that. That manager who raged at me, who said, what the hell is wrong with you? That manager who threw my presentation out of the window, that present that. So if you don't remember those kind of managers, then why do you want to be such manager or such leaders? So what kind of managers do you remember? And then they'll start to speak, oh, I remember that person who appreciated me. So then what's stopping you from being appreciative? So to me, it's, it's a, it's a dance where these people need to understand how they want their leadership to be. And once that, that unlocks for them, there's no, there's no rocket science to leadership. It's a very simple game. You just have to become a better human being.

Rane: All right. Yeah.

Jo: It actually brought to mind, I don't know if you've seen the TV show the Bear, so very hectic kitchen situation. And it seemed like a big thread in that storyline is like the main character has all this trauma from being bullied by his old boss and he was just told, this is what you need to be the best chef that you can be. And then, like, you kind of see him reliving those toxic patterns in his own leadership, because maybe he just doesn't know another way, or maybe it's just ingrained in him and he's stressed, so that's what comes out of his mouth rather than something that's a little bit more considered. Have you got any advice for people who maybe haven't experienced good leadership to, like, find a better way?

Utkarsh: Yeah, I. I love that thought. Because, you know, it's like, if you've not seen. And this applies to parenting as well, this applies to yoga as well. If you have a teacher who's. Who's maybe not fully capable yet of being the best teacher that they can be, then they'll teach you something that might not be the best poster ever. So. So this applies to all of life, right, that we see certain things and then we behave in those ways itself. I think the idea is there are still examples out there in the world who are like epitomes or who are like the best case practises, right? So you study them. You have to show that genuine interest and that openness, that I'm going to be a different kind of leader. It's one of those things, right, that if my dad said a few things to me which did not make sense, does it mean that I have to say those things to my kids as well? If I was told that, oh, you cannot be crying because you're a man or you're a boy, should I be saying that same thing to my kid who's. Who's 11 years old? So I think it's really important for us to recognise that we have to have the openness of learning new ways. And the times are changing. The times with AI and this and that, everything is shifting so quickly. In one moment, the tech companies are going into billions and trillions, and then the next moment everything is falling down. The administration changes in a country, the Prime Minister and the President, and things shift left, right and centre. But I think ultimately we need to realise that we need to have the openness. There are always new possibilities and new ways for us to be. And if you can study some of the great leaders from, from our times and past, then you can absolutely find ways to, to do that. And then the final thought here is go ask for feedback. Ask your team am I being the best leader to you that I can be? And if the answer is no, then okay, help me. How do I be one? Now that needs a lot of humbleness, that needs a lot of humility. Where as a leader going and asking for feedback is not natural. So all these conversations, I think organisations need to still kind of invest a lot into training and development. It's thought of as over the budget kind of a thing. Not needed, not a nice, not a must have, just a nice to have. Maybe check in a box once a year. But I think if you invest in the right kind of leadership training your leaders would, would produce great results for the organisation.

Rane: Nice. And I was just wondering if you could pick a leader for people to study. Who in particular? Like say a famous world leader or anyone really. Who, who would you pick?

Utkarsh: Yeah. Oh that's a. You put me in a spot. I'm thinking, see, see a lot of different leaders come to mind. From Steve Jobs to there's this person who's, who's the leader of PepsiCo Indra NUI to I think the one person I would really recommend and I've never like I've had people give positives and negatives to all leaders in the world. But there's this one person who passed away last year. He was an Indian leader. His name is Ratan Tata. And he's one leader who I've never had anyone say wrong things about. He's one leader who's always been full of humility. Not only for his employees and human beings but also for animals and his love for dogs. There is, there are stories where he was I think about to meet, meet, I think the president of the UK or something for, for a very big meeting and his dog fell ill that day and he cancelled that meeting. His PA called the president saying that Ratan Dad, I cannot meet you today. And I hope I'm quoting the story right, but I'm pretty sure I am that his dog fell in and then the president said that's the kind of man Ratan Tata is. And I'm okay with that. We can postpone the meeting to me then, then he's the leader that one should, should study.

Rane: Beautiful. And I guess to switch gears again. What is your definition of purpose? Another Big question.

Utkarsh: Another big word. Some of these words, you know, part of me feels like they're the words that are misused, abused, and overused. Whether it's purpose, whether it's leadership, whether it's empathy. You know, purpose in its simplest terms could be just doing something that gives you that inner satisfaction. It could be anything. It could be just raising a family. Could be a beautiful purpose. Changing the world in beautiful ways is a purpose. Doing a yoga class that's done to perfection is. Is a great purpose. Being on this conversation and talking to both of you, that's my purpose. So purpose can be of different sizes and magnitudes. We sometimes feel that my purpose has to be as large as an Elon Musk or as large as someone else, but that's not the truth. To me, purpose is a very personal definition of something that gives you fulfilment. And if you were to pass on from this planet, fulfil that purpose, then you feel like you've died a happy man or a woman. You've died as a happy human being who felt like I lived fully on this planet and I was able to serve people around me. To me, that. That to me is the easiest and the most effective in my perception. Definition of purpose.

Jo: Yeah, I think that's great because we don't need any more Elon Musks. One is more than enough.

Utkarsh: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. I agree with that.

Rane: And I guess how do you encourage people to find their purpose, whatever that might be?

Utkarsh: Absolutely. I think whenever I'm coaching people, there are a few conversations we definitely have, and then the first one that starts them off on this journey of going and finding their purpose, their values. The first question I ask them is, who is Joe? Who is Ran? And they'll typically answer this question as, oh, we are a yoga teacher. We are podcast host. And this is what. What I did as well. Right. A TEDx speaker and this and that. But we've been programmed to speak about our outer achievements a lot because that's how. That's how society works. If I were to say, I'm just a human being who's really happy in being his own space, then people might not even listen to this podcast because they'll feel like, oh, he's not even a TEDx speaker. What is he doing here? So I think what we've done is that when I ask them this question, who are you? I ask them to strip down their personal relationships. Don't worry about being a sibling, being a partner, being a child, a parent, whatever. A Colleague. The second thing you do is strip away all your educational achievements, your masters, your PhD, you have five PhDs. I don't care about that. Strip that away. And then third thing is strip away your work identity. Don't call yourself a podcast host, don't call yourself a leader, don't call yourself an employee, don't call yourself a software engineer or whatever that takes. And then what's left? What really ignites your spark? What gives you joy? What are some big fears that you have? If there were no restraints, what would you spend your time doing? To me, that really defines who a person is? And so we start on that journey, then get into defining their values and then the conversation starts to shift around that. If, if you were to end this life in a few decades from now, say you're 80, 85 year old, and, and you're about to pass away from this planet, what would you want your life to stand for? To me, if, if they can honestly answer this question, that's what will help them to find their purpose really well.

Rane: Beautiful.

Jo: Yeah, it sounds very yogic.

Utkarsh: Actually, I think that, I think yoga is a way of life, right? And it started in India and I beautifully, like, there's this book, maybe you've heard about it, Bhagavad Gita. And when I used to be a physiotherapist, I used to have patients who were in their 60s, 70s and 80s. And so in my private practise, in my clinic, we used to actually have Bhagavad Gita being played all the time on record. And so we would sit there and as a 25 year old, I would be having conversations with the people who are like in their 70s and talking to them about their achievements in life and this and that. And they'd come back and say, utka, live each moment as if it were to be your last. Have this principle of non attachment, which is what the Bhagavad Gita says that you can do all you want to do. I can record the best podcast in the world, I can give the best TEDx speech in the world, but what would happen after that is not in my control. I want my TEDX to go to a million views, but will it? I don't know. So I, what I control is being the best person I can be in that moment, doing the best action that I can do in that moment, but be very dissociated with what's to come after that. To me, I think there's a lot of lessons in, in, in yoga practises. And, and yeah, if, if people go deep into that, I. I think they'll unlock life in, in beautiful ways.

Rane: Absolutely. So I guess I've just got one more question. It's a question we ask everyone at the end of our episode. And that question is if, if you could distil everything that you've learned and everything that you teach or share with the core essence or one core lesson, what do you think that one thing would be?

Utkarsh: Wow. We need a 15 second pause before we answer this question. One core idea or one core lesson? Do your best. I think if, if all of us can do that. Do your best in service of yourself and others. To me, that completes the thought.

Rane: Beautiful. Beautiful. And well, thank you so much for that and I think thank you for everything you've said. I think a lot of the things we've talked about today is stuff that we might kind of intellectually know, but maybe need a bit of a reminder every so often. And so I think it's great that you have, have shared with us these, these awesome ideas and thoughts. So thank you very much.

Utkarsh: Absolutely. It was a, it was a pleasure. And you know, this. It.

Rane: To.

Utkarsh: To achieve the simple things in life is really hard. We've unlocked AI, we have unlocked technology, we. But I really feel we are one of the most disconnected generations of all times because we are so occupied with our own technology and devices at times that we forget to have a thoughtful human conversation with the other person. So I think if listeners want to take one thing away, yes, do your best. We spoke about that. But be. Be the best human being that you can. And I think it'll be a, it'll be a job well done for all of us.

Jo: Wonderful. Thank you so much for that. It's very inspiring. I'm definitely going to go out today and be the best human being that I can be. So thanks for putting that message out there.

Utkarsh: Love that you're helping me achieve my purpose then.

Rane: Beautiful. We really hope you enjoyed our conversation with Utkarsh. We've put all his links in our show notes on our website, podcast.flowartist.com if you'd like to learn more. And again, a quick reminder that we'd love it if you could write us a quick review on Apple podcasts or leave us some stars on Spotify. This is a great way to help others find the podcast and show your support. We also love hearing from our listeners and finding out what you enjoy about the podcast. We also really appreciate it when you share our post about each episode or Leave us a comment online. You can find us at the Flow Artist Podcast Facebook page or or look for Rane Loves Yoga or Garden of Yoga on Instagram for a DIY operation and your community support really helps. Special thanks goes out to our Patreon supporters. Your donations help us cover editing and hosting costs and we appreciate you so much. You can even join our Patreon for free now. To get the latest updates just go to patreon.com flow artist podcast. Utkarsh is generously sharing access to his seven day to the Ignite your Life programme to our Patreon members and there's lots of other great bonus content from past guests waiting for you there. We'd also like to express our gratitude to Ghost Soul for granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out ghostsoul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. We appreciate you more than words can express here. Arohanui Maua Kia Kotou Katoa, sending you big big love.